Divine Magic

[Ssendam]

Hi All,

I just wanted to get a few opinions on Divine Magic from you all ...

As I recall under RQ3 the good thing about divine magic was that because it was from the gods it had a 100% chance of success. I think this was reduced depending on Enc. The downside was that once the spell was gone you had to return to a temple to learn the spell and pay vast sums for it.

MRQ uses an advanced skill to cast divine magic and has the same downside.

Are divine spells really that powerful? It seems to me that they are inferior to say Rune Magic, and very costly.

Am I missing the point here? Does anyone use alternate rules?

I would think that as you need to be a proper worshiper of your religion, (and the higher up the order you are the better spells you get), and you sacrifice pow then the cost of getting spells would be lower?

Thoughts? Is Golanthria Divine Magic Different?

 

[Rurik]

There are alternatives in Mr. Qwiki (also known as the MRQ Wiki) at:

http://mrqwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Divine_Magic

Mr. Qwiki is a pretty smart guy and has lots of good ideas.

 

[soltakss]

Divine Magic in RQM does look a lot less powerful.

You sacrifice POW by Dedicating POW to a deity. That POW isn't lost, it's just moved into a separate account. When you cast a Divine Spell, the POW you Dedicated to it is restored and you het it back, think of it as moving POW back into your POW Account.

What this means is that you are restricted to the number of Divine Spells or amount of POW that you can spend on Divine Magic. Whereas in RQ2/3 you had Priests with 20 points of Divine Magic and some with over a hundred, in RQM you are rerally restricting Divine Magic to 17 or 18 points for a human and that trashes normal POW. This makes it a lot weaker than in previous versions.

One rationale for this is that in Second Age Glorantha, Divine Powers have been weakened by the God Learners and EWF, so Divine Magic is correspondingly less powerful. This is patently a load of old rubbish. The reason Divine Magic is less powerful is that Mongoose have made it so.

One way around this is to make it so that the POW Sacrifice goes into a POW Pool that can be used to sacrifice for Divine Magic, any spells cast restore POW to the POW Pool rather than back on POW. You still need a way of regaining sacrificed POW, but spending XP or Hero Points might be a way for that to work.

Having a skill to gain and cast Divine Magic is a bit restrictive but not that much. It means that starting Initiates don't get much Divine Magic or spend days asking for divine help until they make their skill. It does mean that beginning initiates can't cast Divine Magic that well, which is very restrictive, so I'd scrap the cast chance for Divine Magic.

Actually, I'd use RQ3's rules for Divine Magic rather than RQM's rules, personally.

 

[zozotroll]

Not only is it generaly less powerful, but specific spells have also been cut down. My poster child for this is crush vs bludgeon.

In RQ3 crush added +10 to attack and did an extra 1D4 damage per point. Bludgeon added +5 to attack, and did an additional 1 point. Now both add +5and 1 point, but bludgeon is still reusable where crush has to go back to a temple and pay more cash and pray for a day.

So yes in general Divine magic got badly hosed.

 

[Ssendam]

I guess it's not the change between RQ3 and RQM that bothers me, it's the fact that Divine magic is not an attractive alternative to other forms of magic under RQM.

To me it doesn't sit well with the Golanthrian Mythos either where the stories of the power of the gods are so rich.

I think I will re-read RQ3 and the Wiki to get some ideas. Initially I am thinking that initiates and above, pay for the spell initially and then need to pray to recall it after being cast. It sounds a bit too much like D&D though.

Am I right in thinking that as you sacrifice POW your POW based tests are calculated on reduced POW, i.e. you are weaker?

Is the Magic of Golanthria book good?

 

[Rurik]

The Strength of Divine Magic is that all spells are 1 skill, and since MRQ is based on limited improvement rolls, it is easyt to improve your cult's specific Theology skill every session.

Rune magic each runecasting is a skill, but there are a limited number of spells per rune. To get a variety of effects you need to improve multiple runecasting skills, using up most of your improvement rolls.

Sorcerers need to learn each spell as a seperate skill, and also need to learn the Manipulation skills, so their improvement rolls get spread the thinnest.

All magic users should also work on Persistence, and may well want to work on Enchanting as well, whic use up more improvement rolls.

So while MRQ magic is as a whole harder for everyone to use than in RQ3 (except for possibly sorcery), DIvine Magic is by far the easiest to learn (skill wise).

You can put an Improvement Roll a session into theology and still focus on combat skills as a Divine caster - no other magic type can do this.

Magic of Glorantha is more of a Sourcebook on the God Learners and Empire of Wyrms Friends than a book on magic. It has a bit on Heroquesting, a few new sorcery spells, and a whole new magic system - Draconic Magic - for the EWF, but is as much if not more source than a spellbook per se. If you plan on getting into Glorantha I do recommend it (both Dragonewts and Jrustela kind of depend on it to some extent as well) - just be aware of what it is, as it's title can be misleading.

 

[Cleombrotus]

When I switched from RQ3 to MRQ it was virtually in the middle of a fight. I had RQ3 stats for a priest of Yara Aranis who was seriously going to make them earn their pay and probably take at least one pc with him. I transferred him over to MRQ trusting in the in-built potency of a Gloranthan priest, and was horrified to find that in combat my lethal warrior priest turned into a complete wimp.

To be fair there was obviously a degree of inexperience there, and running your first combat against a priest in the middle of a small battle was not the wisest move, but that was where the story was at so too bad for me.

I'm now back with RQ3 Divine magic, and happier for it. Using POW like Free INT for divine magic was a duff idea. At least for Glorantha.

 

[Rurik]

Actually, if Dedicated POW were like free int it wouldn't be quite so bad.

Technically, every Time you learn a point of divine magic, you effectively lose a point of POW, so you need to recalculate your POW based skills and your Magic Points go down. Once you cast a divine spell your MP's go back up and you recalculate all your skill bonuses again.

So a POW 18 Divine caster with 15 points of Divine Magic has 3 MP and is effectively at -15% to Persistence, Resilience, Perception, any Runcasting skills, enchanting and other skills. :?

 

[Cleombrotus]

I'm trying hard to resist the urge to rant about stuff like this. We runequesters have a saying, "Mongoose created MRQ to test the faithful..."

 

[Deleriad]

I suppose like most people I have tended not to use Dedicated POW because I think, basically, it's a bad idea. If I wanted to run MRQ with minimal changes then I would say:
Dedicated POW works like Free INT; i.e. has no effect on your MPs, it's just a limit to how much magic you can hold.
Divine Companions/allied spirits also count as Dedicated POW, effectively doubling the amount of DPOW usually.

Rune Priest Legendary ability allows your DPOW to store 2 additional Magnitude per point of Dedicated POW e.g. you can store 3 Magnitude of Divine Magic for each point of DPOW

Rune Lord legendary ability does the same.

The two abilities stack so that you can have a Rune Lord-Priest with 5 Mag per point of DPOW. (If your world allows such things.)

Optionally, I would allow Acolytes to gain +1 Mag of Divine Magic per point of DPOW (this would not stack with the legendary abilities).

Finally, I would use the Cults of Glorantha rule that limits initiates to a maximum of 2 Mag per spell, acolytes 4 Mag and Lords/Priests unlimited.

Basically, this allows you to up the amount of divine magic and allows a progression of effectiveness. This without basically changing the mechanics.

 

[Ssendam]

Thanks to all for taking the trouble to give feedback on this ...

I am glad that it's not me being a duffus, and that others think the strict rules are a bit "ropey". I'm also happy for the positive responses as a pose to a rant about "change".

Personally I would rather work from MRQ with a few house rules as a pose to running MRQ/RQ3 depending on which bits I didn't like. That's a reflection of my lack of detailed knowledge of RQ3 I think, clearly some will find it better to have a mixed system.

I like the idea of ignoring the Dedicated POW calculations. I can't think of anything worse than recalculating stats/skills during a game as you cast spells. I think I will just use DPOW to look at the maximum spells a PC can learn.

I think that I may also dispense with paying for spells ... per se. That is; as a member of a cult you will be expected to be in good standing to get spells, which means you have to have made ongoing contributions.

I need to play with some of the options and see how it pans out.

 

[Deleriad]

I like the idea of ignoring the Dedicated POW calculations. I can't think of anything worse than recalculating stats/skills during a game as you cast spells. I think I will just use DPOW to look at the maximum spells a PC can learn.

That's one very good reason to make a change to DPOW. Another bug/feature of DPOW is that there is essentially no difference between a Priest and an Initiate when you use the rules as written. This is partly deliberate in MRQ as the idea is to get starting characters being able to do things quite quickly. I would therefore allow some extra breaks for priests etc. Giving them what is effectively a multiple of DPOW is one way to do that. Another is to let them "regain" their Divine Magic through prayer (perhaps 1 Mag/hour) rather than having to go to a temple to relearn.

Good luck.

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

I don't run a Glorantha campaign and - as divine magic starts to become relevant - I am house ruling divine magic in three ways:

1. Initiates can sacrifice POW to put into a pool which can used for any divine spells of that deity - the individual spells are lost when used but the dedicatd POW remains. When they sacrifice the POW then this is lost and everything is recalculated - after this they are likely to use newly gained POW to top up the pool so recalculation of skills etc is less likely to be needed. Obtaining new divine spells for initiates more or less as per the book (a few time and cost tweaks I think).

2. Priests can choose to permanently sacrifice POW not to a pool (as above) but to gain a spell which is re-usable. They can sacrifice all, some or none of their existing pool gained as intiiates.

3. Revisiting some specific spells to make them act as twice as powerful as similar magnitude rune and sorcery spells.

Regards

 

[weasel_fierce]

IMO, divine magic is pretty damn good, but its balanced out more.

Advantages:

1: One skill to raise, rather than multiples for different spells. This means you can still funnel plenty of advances into other things

2: Double magnitude versus dispels.

3: One action to cast. This is a big deal in melee


Compared to RQ3, the POW loss isnt permanent, which is HUGE. Taking 4 points of divine magic in RQ3 drops you from say, 15 to 11 POW. What happens now ?
It'll take at an absolute minimum of 2 sessions to get this back, propably more (you might not make the POW gain roll afterall)

While your POW is low, you're more susceptible to all sorts of magic, which means your mighty acolyte is likely to be befuddled by some tribal yahoos.

If you pack some spirit magic of your own (and to regain POW you have to pack one of the few offensive spells) its now only a 55% chance of working, instead of your familiar 75%.

all in all, divine magic is far more usefull and available now than it was before. Now, some specific spells could use a bit of revising, but overall, I prefer the current system by far.

 

[Rurik]

You are much more limited in total magic available. If your POW is 15, it isn't really practical to learn more than 5 - 10 points of Divine Magic - especially if you learn Rune Magic as well. That is pretty limited, especially when compared to RQ3.

Though the old Permenant POW implementation just does not work in MRQ because POW gain is much harder.

I will point out most Divine Pool implementations are in addition to the rules as raw - dedicating Permenant POW to your Divine Pool does not preclude learning it through dedicated POW as written.

Finally, Enchanting is a way to 'learn' Divine Magic for Permenant POW. Just make an item to store your spell and recharge it. It has the downside of being able to be stolen, but the upside that others can use it. I amagine limits that only cult members can use such items are very common. Divine Magicians are actually the best magicians at enchanting because they can afford POW gain rolls better than any other school - 3 'spare' improvement points are a lot easier to come by for a theist than any other magic type.

 

[zozotroll]

My problem isnt with how Divine works. You have always had to go back and repray.

But repaying every time would seem to be a big disadvantage, unless your game has a lot more loot than most I have seen. And, you dont get much bang for your buck.

In older versions, you really horded your Divine magic because you were not going to get it back anytime soon. But when you did cut lose, it had an effect. Now, you horde it because it is expensive, and it isnt going to do that much anyway.

Now if runes are rare, or very expensive, then perhaps Divine is more attractive.

It almost seems as if the goose wants everybody to dump divine and take socery instead.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Nobody panic - it's nothing that another dozen or so house rules won't fix...

 

[weasel_fierce]

I think its a bit extreme to say divine magic isnt usefull anymore. There's plenty of usefull spells. Just because Sever Spirit doesnt kill people anymore, doesn't mean the entire magic system is nerfed.

And again, I'll take slightly weaker spells over spells that will penalize my character for the next 3 months of gameplay

 

[Nickbergquist]

I'll jump on the bandwagon here a bit, too: it seems to me that rune magic is pretty balanced, but the divine magic is weak and the sorcery is absolutely dreaful with a dedicated sorcerer. My houserules (which I may implement with session this Sunday) is:

1. Divine magic is not limited to one spell, but whatever DPOW the diviner is willing to put up for it. Leave money cost in place.

2. Sorcery: it seems to me that the 0 POW cost for un-manipulated spells is just complete madness. I was toying with one of the following: 1-all spells cost 1 MP base cost, period, unless a crit on the skill check is done. Or 2-spells work as is, but if you keep casting the same Mag 1 spell over and over, then a fatigue cost sets in, instead. Maybe treat it as a medium or heavy level of "magical exertion," which would mean that after XCON rounds of persistent casting the sorcerer will get tired.

 

[RosenMcStern]

1. I could not understand your proposal. What is the

2. What is wrong in having petty magic cost 0? Most spells are useless at magnitude 1, so the whole story is not unbalancing at all. Okay, having Resist Magic 1 always on can block Disruption spells, but are Disruption spells dangerous any more?