Dithering, need help

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,

I'm in a blather, and need a bit of help.

Currently, I've played once, love the game, and want ships. I know I want to a) have lots of fighters, b) have a good solid 5 point raid force that can take on multiple types of opponents, c) want that force to still be a viable component of something larger, and d) want something that matches my preffered style of play. I tend to favour wait and pounce strategies, but generally succumb to the temptation of wild and indiscriminate aggession. And, of course, has lots and lots of fighters. Because they're cool.

Of the factions available, and not currently selected by potential opponents, I like the look of the Minbari, Abbai, Vree and Brakiri. Of these three, which is most likely to meet the criteria I note above?

Thanks for any help,

FMB

 

[Chernobyl]

Vree have no carriers to speak of, really.
Don't have a real feel for Abbai but I hear their fighters aren't that great.
I'm assuming you meant Brakiri, and not Drazi? Drazi have a decent selection of ships and one of the most powerful fighters, but is an exceptionally hard fleet to master and not for the inexperienced.
You'll probably find the Minbari most forgiving, but at Raid level you're not going to have swarms of fighters.

Chern

 

[Ripple]

Minbari, very solid. Meets all critieria stated

Abbai, weak fighters and somewhat weak to many (beam based0 opponents.

Vree, lack of carrier will mean fighters are a choice that replaces ships. fighter is good though and are very much a wait and pounce fleet.

If you ment Brakiri, fighers available in decent numbers and can take on most comers. Interceptor ships will give you some headaches. Have good ships in skirmish and battle pls so they can do well in Raid games.

If you ment Drakh, no fighters, smaller attack ships instead. Good selection of ships for a raid battle that scale fairly well.

If you ment Drazi, fighters are common but difficult to use. Tough to win Raid fights in pure drazi, fairly opponent dependant.

Would recomend in order Brakiri, Minbari, Vree. Minbari second only because they have a bad reputation due to stealth mechanics.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

going by your description i would say the earth alliance is the fleet for you. novas and omegas come with 4 fighters each, think EA gets more fighters than anyone. they have long range beams to sit back, they have a decent selection at raid and when you feel wild and aggressive they are quite good up close and in your face.

 

[Silvereye]

OK, 5 point stand-off type Raid fleets with lots of fighters. I tried to put a fleet carrier in each fleet as they will help you make the best use of the fightes, provide a command boost and make a "flagship" type vessel. (Ship Viewer) All these fleets should be able to perform at the lower PL levels, and should make a good 'core' for later expansion.

Minbari:
1 Morshin Carrier (Battle)
2 Teshlan Fast Cruisers (Raid, Tigara variant)
1 Ashinta Close Escort (Raid, Tinashi variant)
Hangers contain: 10 Nial Flights, 1 Flyer flight.

Brakiri:
1 Brokados Battle Carrier (Battle)
2 Haltona Frigates (Raid, Halik variant)
2 Brikorta Light Carriers (Skirmish Ikorta variant)
Hangers contain: 8 Falkosi flights. [Swapping a Brikorta for an Ikorta would increase the long range firepower available, but would reduce the available fighters to 6]

Abbai, this fleet contains no specific Carrier or Fleet Carrier vessels:
4 Milani Carriers (Skirmish)
1 Lakara Cruiser (Battle)
2 Tiraca Assault frigates (Patrol)
1 Bisaria Escort Frigate (Patrol, Tiraca variant)
Hangers contain: 16 Kotha flights

For fighter consideration (and fleet comparison):-
Earth Alliance (3rd Age or Early):
1 Avenger Heavy Carrier (Battle)
2 Hyperion Cruiser (Raid)
3 Hermes Transports (Patrol)
Hangers contain: 13 fighter flights.

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,


Thanks for all the help and advice so far, esp. to Silvereye. Now I have a whole new set of questions :roll:

I understand that the Minbari and EA are supposed to have the best fighters, but from the fleets Silvereye posted, numbers can vary widely.

In terms of effectiveness, what matters more in this game, numbers, or quality? From what little experience I've had, you need lots of fighters to pose even a limited threat to line ships, but getting your lots of fighters to target requires good fighters. The 16 Kotha flights in the Brakiri fleet are tempting, but I've seen what Minbari fighters can do to opposing equivalents. Are 16 flights of Kothas a threat, or a target, relative to other options?

FMB

 

[katadder]

numbers count in dogfights, you get +1 for every extra freindly joining in the dogfight and as kothas have a dogfight score of 0 they would need 3 to be even with a nial flight, 4 if the morshin is on the board as thats a fleet carrier.
but kothas are weak anti ship, possibly the worst fighters in the game. nials are good v ships or other fighters, star furies are quite good dogfighters and have twin linked which is useful versus ships but any starfuries can be swapped out for thunderbolts which are better versus ships.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well Kothas are Abbai fighters not Brakiri.
The Brakiri fighters are falkosis
To answer your question, no Kothas are not a threat and are perhaps the least dangerous fighters in the game.

Of the fleets you listed I would say the Minbari are the best, with excellent fighters.
Vree as already mentioned lack carriers but can dance around opponents.
Brakiri would be second best after Minbari with ok fighters and carriers plus a real mix of heavy slugger ships and fast ships.
Abbai throw out a wall of fire but fighters are a weak point.

 

[Silvereye]

Hi,

Thanks for all the help and advice so far, esp. to Silvereye. Now I have a whole new set of questions :roll:

I understand that the Minbari and EA are supposed to have the best fighters, but from the fleets Silvereye posted, numbers can vary widely.

In terms of effectiveness, what matters more in this game, numbers, or quality? From what little experience I've had, you need lots of fighters to pose even a limited threat to line ships, but getting your lots of fighters to target requires good fighters. The 16 Kotha flights in the Brakiri fleet are tempting, but I've seen what Minbari fighters can do to opposing equivalents. Are 16 flights of Kothas a threat, or a target, relative to other options?

FMB

No problem. As to numbers, with the EA fleet I can easily add in another 6 fighter flights by swappin the Hyperions for Nova Dreadnaughts, however this would alter the fleet to a close brawler type rather than the stand-off approach of the Hyperions and Hermes. With the Abbai, you could swap out the three Patrol choices and replace them with another 2 Milani carriers (+8 flights).

As to what you may face at this level, you will likely have similar quantities of fighters to Raiders and a very Nova heavy Earth fleet, and significantly more than most other opponents. The fleets I listed were built around a fighter heavy idea and needed the points spent on carriers to do this.

The 16 flights of Kothas may outnumber most opponents at that level. And to be effective they will need the weight of numbers. As a Skirmish ship the Milani Carrier looks quite good, though I have very limited experiance of Abbai.

So what matters more, quantity or quality? Really, it is a mixture of both factors, especially if you have a Fleet Carrier for Replenish and Repair and the +1 dogfight. The fleet make-up you want says you are looking for good anti-ship work though, and for anti-ship work, you want to be throwing a lot of AD at the ship. So you either need lots of poor fighters, or a few good fighters. This will favour the Minbari, Earth and Narn fleets.

As to fighters, Nials are the best all round fighters in the game (at the minute - I don't know about the ones in Armageddon). They excel at both dogfighting and anti-ship work (3 AD, AP). Flyers, Thunderbolts and Frazis are all excellent anti-ship fighters. Flyers (3 AD, AP) and Stealth 5+, Frazis just because of the amount of dice (4 AD) each flight has, Thunderbolts because they have additional missiles (2 AD + 2 AD, AP). Senti's and Starfury make excellent interceptors (Dogfight +2).

 

[Triggy]

Hi,

Thanks for all the help and advice so far, esp. to Silvereye. Now I have a whole new set of questions :roll:

I understand that the Minbari and EA are supposed to have the best fighters, but from the fleets Silvereye posted, numbers can vary widely.

In terms of effectiveness, what matters more in this game, numbers, or quality? From what little experience I've had, you need lots of fighters to pose even a limited threat to line ships, but getting your lots of fighters to target requires good fighters. The 16 Kotha flights in the Brakiri fleet are tempting, but I've seen what Minbari fighters can do to opposing equivalents. Are 16 flights of Kothas a threat, or a target, relative to other options?

FMB

No problem. As to numbers, with the EA fleet I can easily add in another 6 fighter flights by swappin the Hyperions for Nova Dreadnaughts, however this would alter the fleet to a close brawler type rather than the stand-off approach of the Hyperions and Hermes. With the Abbai, you could swap out the three Patrol choices and replace them with another 2 Milani carriers (+8 flights).

As to what you may face at this level, you will likely have similar quantities of fighters to Raiders and a very Nova heavy Earth fleet, and significantly more than most other opponents. The fleets I listed were built around a fighter heavy idea and needed the points spent on carriers to do this.

The 16 flights of Kothas may outnumber most opponents at that level. And to be effective they will need the weight of numbers. As a Skirmish ship the Milani Carrier looks quite good, though I have very limited experiance of Abbai.

So what matters more, quantity or quality? Really, it is a mixture of both factors, especially if you have a Fleet Carrier for Replenish and Repair and the +1 dogfight. The fleet make-up you want says you are looking for good anti-ship work though, and for anti-ship work, you want to be throwing a lot of AD at the ship. So you either need lots of poor fighters, or a few good fighters. This will favour the Minbari, Earth and Narn fleets.

As to fighters, Nials are the best all round fighters in the game (at the minute - I don't know about the ones in Armageddon). They excel at both dogfighting and anti-ship work (3 AD, AP). Flyers, Thunderbolts and Frazis are all excellent anti-ship fighters. Flyers (3 AD, AP) and Stealth 5+, Frazis just because of the amount of dice (4 AD) each flight has, Thunderbolts because they have additional missiles (2 AD + 2 AD, AP). Senti's and Starfury make excellent interceptors (Dogfight +2).

The Kotha might be next to useless at damaging enemy ships but en masse they're not too bad at taking on enemy fighters and tie that in with the Milani being a nice, hard-hitting ship (although quite easy to kill), the Abbai could be a fun fleet to go for. They are generally tough with good firepower and flexible in combat. Their main downsides are that they're slightly short ranged and lack a good offensive fighter.

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,

So, aftyer much harumphing, I broke down and went for EA. I'm going to start with the Posiden carrier group and a couple of Hyperion missile variants; I figure this is a playable 5p Raid, though admitadly not optimised, but it contains ships I know I'd use in larger games, including two of the more flexible hulls in the EA fleet, and (at least IMHO), the coolest ship in the game.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I suspect it will come in handy down the road.

Now, fighter tactics . . . ?

FMB

 

[MustEatBrains]

Hi,

I'm going to start with the Posiden carrier group and a couple of Hyperion missile variants; I figure this is a playable 5p Raid,

Erm...with the Poseidon being War level, it would use up 4 of your 5 Raid points - are you sure about this? Or did I just miss something in the thread above?

On the other hand, 1 Poseidon and 2 skirmish Hyperions... interesting concept!

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,

Yep, I realize it fills up a lot of slots. However, buying the boxed set and the hyperions gives me all the fighters I'll need for now, plus two of the more flexible ships in the range. If we move to bigger battles, which is likely, the Hyperions will graduate to their raid level equivalents.

While this isn't an optimised raid fleet by any means, it does give me some good / cool hulls and the "tons 'o fighters" effect I discussed above. Whether it will work or not . . . ?

FMB

 

[Ripple]

Once Armeggedon comes out all previous fighter tactics go out the window as fighters will now fire first. Just keep that in mind with any further posts.

usually I have found having the fighters trail the fleet out of range of the enemy fleets fighters (if you have lost initiative) provides good cover. Given you are using fighters as your strike element I am not sure you will have much luck until Arm comes out.

Since you move last with the fighters, stop just outside heavy weapon range. The following turn try to lunge through his weapon ranges, use afterburners if you have to, and get into an arc with no antifighter weapons. Always concentrate on clearing one ship from a flank and moving inward.

If you have trouble getting those hyperions to work in the missle role, try using them as rail variants instead and flying up the center with them. This will occupy the enemy fleet and hopefully allow you T-bolts to force a flank and begin the long tedious rollup.

Keep the posiedon in range to support the fighters if he has enemies fighters out and to get recovery rolls. This will be difficult if there is no terrain, as the posiedon is vulnerable ship, but you will lose fighters against every ship you take down so the 5-6 roll is very important to your fleet.

Ripple

 

[Silvereye]

Hi,

So, aftyer much harumphing, I broke down and went for EA. I'm going to start with the Posiden carrier group and a couple of Hyperion missile variants; I figure this is a playable 5p Raid, though admitadly not optimised, but it contains ships I know I'd use in larger games, including two of the more flexible hulls in the EA fleet, and (at least IMHO), the coolest ship in the game.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I suspect it will come in handy down the road.

Now, fighter tactics . . . ?

FMB

Intersting idea.... And probably not one I'd have tried for. It does give you a huge damage sinking laser magnet in the carrier and buckets of fighters. Regular Hyperions are one of my favorite ships, they are superb. My only complaint about them is they are over gunned, and under structured. Your opponents will treat them as a priority target and they tend to not have the damage to soak it all. Some of the variants are good too.

Whilst The Poseidon box is excellent value for spending money and buying fighters (I think the carrier nearly comes free). I would add a single Avenger on to your order for the lower PL stuff, Raid or below. And use the Poseidon for Battle and above where it becomes better value.

EG: for not quite maxed out, non-cheesy[1], EA fighter goodness, stand off and batter type fleet.

5 Battle (Most of this is formed from the 5 point Raid fleet above):
Poseidon (1 War)
2 Hyperions (2 Raid)
Avenger (Battle)
4 Hermes (Patrol)
Hangers contain 30 fighter flights, from 2 Fleet Carriers. You can generally start with 10 flights in play!

[1] Its not cheesy because all your fighters are brought to the game in hangers. Being able to launch nearly all of them by the end of the first turn is another matter that your opponents may curse you for.

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,

Looks cool. I take your point about the avenger, and will definitely consider picking one up.

I was wondering about the role of a scout ship in a fighter fleet. The advantages it offers, in terms of deployment and concentration of fire, seems considerable. Would it make sense to include something along those lines? In bigger games, I'm also considering missile ships, either Sags or Apollos.

I also note you've included Hermes in large numbers. Is this simply to max the fighters present, or are these better ships than I realize?

FMB

 

[Silvereye]

I also note you've included Hermes in large numbers. Is this simply to max the fighters present, or are these better ships than I realize?

FMB

Too early to think about Scouts (7am is bad...) will answer that later. Hermes are good ships. They provide initiative sinks for boresight ships, have a 30" missile rack that can carry any EA missile type, carry 1 flight of Starfury, have a jump point and to top things off, come with Interceptors.

They seemed to help do what you wanted your fleet to do really.

 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi,

Next question (if I've not yet exhausted your patience?) - what is an "initiative sink"?

FMB

 

[MustEatBrains]

Hi,

Next question (if I've not yet exhausted your patience?) - what is an "initiative sink"?

FMB

A term used for small, less important ships which you activate before your more important ones - they are meant to force your opponent to activate his big ships before you do, so you can target them with boresight, move out of dangerous firing arcs, or do any other number of things collectively known as "outmaneuvering"...

 

[lastbesthope]

I was wondering about the role of a scout ship in a fighter fleet. The advantages it offers, in terms of deployment and concentration of fire, seems considerable.

Looking at the wording of the Scout action, the concentrating fire would not work for fighters as you have to choose a weapon system on a ship, fighters a re aux craft, not ships.

LBH