Dispute over opposed test bonus

[PhilHibbs]

One of my party is Rune Touched by Mastery and so gets a +10% bonus to opposed tests. Casting Befuddle is an opposed test of Common Magic skill vs Persistence. I am reluctant to increase the chance of casting the spell, so I rules that this should be handled by reducing the target's Persistence. Unfortunately I had already rolled the dice, and the target had rolled a better (higher) success which was still a success with the reduced skill. My players practically revolted and stormed my GM's Shield with pitchforks, insisting that it should reduce his dice roll by 10, which makes no sense at all as it is just as likely to turn a failure into a success as a success into a lower (worse) success. I refused to budge and just got on with the combat round. This confirms my suspicion that there are cracks in the rules that can disrail a game if you're not careful. Other than that, it was a cracking session and I think everyone's warming to the rules.

 

[Deleriad]

One of my party is Rune Touched by Mastery and so gets a +10% bonus to opposed tests. Casting Befuddle is an opposed test of Common Magic skill vs Persistence. I am reluctant to increase the chance of casting the spell, so I rules that this should be handled by reducing the target's Persistence. Unfortunately I had already rolled the dice, and the target had rolled a better (higher) success which was still a success with the reduced skill. My players practically revolted and stormed my GM's Shield with pitchforks, insisting that it should reduce his dice roll by 10, which makes no sense at all as it is just as likely to turn a failure into a success as a success into a lower (worse) success. I refused to budge and just got on with the combat round. This confirms my suspicion that there are cracks in the rules that can disrail a game if you're not careful. Other than that, it was a cracking session and I think everyone's warming to the rules.

Well, the rules are pretty straight forward on this point. The spell caster gets a +10% to their skill for any spells with the resist trait. There's no crack there.

There is a crack in certain of the "roll and keep" rolls in combat. For example, say you roll 37 in attack that ends up causing a serious wound then the target has to make an opposed roll against the original 37 result. If the attacker happened to be rune touched by mastery then the attacker should have had a bonus but of course didn't because it wasn't an opposed roll. On the other hand if you attack and your opponent declares an evade so you get +10% then the opponent decides not bother with the evade, you have had the bonus for an unopposed roll.

In play, most players don't really notice these issues so you can just let them slide. If you have the type of players who do notice them then I would rule that the mastery bonus can be applied as either a bonus to the character's skill or a penalty to the target's skill depending on the rune-touched's preference.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Well, the rules are pretty straight forward on this point. The spell caster gets a +10% to their skill for any spells with the resist trait. There's no crack there.

There is a crack in certain of the "roll and keep" rolls in combat. For example, say you roll 37 in attack that ends up causing a serious wound then the target has to make an opposed roll against the original 37 result.

Same issue with sorcery. If the spell bounces off a defensive magic, then there is no opposed test. You have to cast the spell before you find out whether you are opposing a resistance, and I'm still convinced that the Mastery doesn't increase the chance to successfully cast the spell in the first place. The Resilience is after-the-fact just like in the case of the wound.

I've run the numbers (OOo spreadsheet available on request), and the best option for the player is always the +10% skill chance. The next best option by a wide margin is reducing the other side's chance by 10%. Very marginally below this, statistically, is adjusting the numbers on the dice for purposes of comparison, so in fact my players were arguing for the worst option, although in the specific case in hand it would have tipped the balance in favour of the player since the NPC rolled higher than the player by less than 10 but still within even a reduced skill.

*Update*: There's currently a gap in my calculation where the two sides have equal skill and equal rolls. I don't know if the spell takes effect in that case. Any opinions? Caster wins on odd roll, target on evens maybe?

 

[Harshlax]

Just a brief thought but could you, after the spell is successfully cast, add the 10% to the roll and then use that as the target roll for the resisting skill roll? So the caster still has to roll based on actual skill yet the roll to resist has the raised target number.

What do you think?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Just a brief thought but could you, after the spell is successfully cast, add the 10% to the roll and then use that as the target roll for the resisting skill roll? So the caster still has to roll based on actual skill yet the roll to resist has the raised target number.

What do you think?

That is what my players were arguing for, like I said:

Very marginally below this, statistically, is adjusting the numbers on the dice for purposes of comparison

...unless I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[Harshlax]

What I mean is, and if you already meant this, I apologise, that if the casting roll works on a roll of 62, then the effective successful casting roll is 72 for purposes of being resisted.

Describing all options in the abstract possibly meant I didn't pick up what you meant as I thought your players wanted the resisting skill to be lowered by 10% before being rolled.

I'm not a statistics expert so I don't know if those 2 options are mathematically identical or not.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Adding 10% to the player's skill gives approximately a 10% improvement in the chance of winning. Subtracting 10% from the target's skill gives the attacker somewhere between 5 and 7% improved chance of winning. Reducing the target's dice roll for comparison purposes, or adding to the player's, also gives between 5 and 7%, but fractionally less than the prior option. The range depends on how high the various skills are relative to each other.

And I still don't know what to do if the skills and dice rolls are equal.

 

[cthulhudarren]

And I still don't know what to do if the skills and dice rolls are equal.

Tie goes to defender?
Flip a coin?
reroll?


This can't happen very often.

 

[Jujitsudave]

I'd say in the case of a tie, the winner is the one with the higher skill. If for some crazy paradoxical reason that is also equal, something ridiculous and off the wall happens.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I'd say in the case of a tie, the winner is the one with the higher skill. If for some crazy paradoxical reason that is also equal, something ridiculous and off the wall happens.

That's the standard rule, it's when skill and roll are equal that I was asking for opinions. And, it's not as unlikely as you might think - the majority of starting warriors will have between 65 and 75 in their best attack, and the distribution won't be even. That cuts down the odds significantly. And then, there's the times that you're using one set of stats for all the pirates and the ship's crew as well, and they all have 50% in their weapon skills.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

That's the standard rule, it's when skill and roll are equal that I was asking for opinions. And, it's not as unlikely as you might think - the majority of starting warriors will have between 65 and 75 in their best attack, and the distribution won't be even. That cuts down the odds significantly. And then, there's the times that you're using one set of stats for all the pirates and the ship's crew as well, and they all have 50% in their weapon skills.

If a PC and an NPC tie on both roll and skill then give the advantage to the PC
If two NPC's tie on both roll and skill then give the advantage to the one that comes first alphabetically (so Pirate#3 comes before Ships Crew#1)
If two PC's tie on both roll and skill then either (a) Each player rolls (any but the same) dice - highest roll wins or (b) GM rolls any dice, on an odd no player 1 wins, on an even roll it's player 2 (This guarantees a result without several re-rolls if the players keep tying, at the cost of seeming "more arbitrary".

You could also allow any (involved) player to spend a Hero Point to break a tie in their favour, but I suspect this would usually result in both players spending and leaving you back where you started

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

My personal feeling is that the person attempting to do something has to win the opposed roll, so in the event of a tie (roll and skill) the status quo is maintained.