Did they have it right the first time?

[cthol24601]

Ok we've been getting into B5 at the club the past couple of months and we're kinda wondering did Mongoose, barring a couple of minor bits and pieces have it right the first time with the rules and fleet lists.

It strikes me the first lists represented the feel of the ships from the show the best and were the most balanced whereas later versions made all sorts of weird balancing errors and then frantically went around trying to correct them and made it worse.

A few things come to mind.

A: the gutting of the Omega
B: the over powering of hyperions
C: the trashing of vorchans (which by the show should be the Centauri staple)
D: giving too many AD to beam weapons so they overwhelm the game.
E: Removing useful battle and raid level ships for shadows so they completely suck at Raid level and overwhelm at higher levels.
F: Odd things like drakh guns on the rear of a certain cruiser.

amongst other bits and pieces we've found essentially that while we need to play the latest version, in a club setting we find the first version had it the best despite a couple of minor issues like the maximus for the centauri for example.

 

[H]

it's all a matter of opinion. the first release certainly had some of the best stuff going for it, but being pretty new, i think mongoose overreacted to issues, and swung to far the other way, for example, mk I e-mines, were definate game winners, then they became little more than fighter clearance as they got downgraded.
I think the company went the right way with the tourney list, one of the best balances acorss the ships it allowed, but all the changes seemed to go out of the window again in armagedon. Fundamentally, it's still a great game, as long as the players are prepared to make those little tweaks to certain ships.
I'm surprised to see the hyperion stated as overpowered, sure it has a solid weapon, but has the surviveability of a slug in a salf factory.

 

[cthol24601]

we've found hyperions acting in packs in bigger games are horrid things. beeming all sorts to death with more dakka power than the omega.

 

[Burger]

I think the current version is pretty balanced, barring a few obvious examples. I didn't play the original version, but Armageddon is more balanced than SFOS for my races at least (White Star downgraded, stealth changes).

we've found hyperions acting in packs in bigger games are horrid things. beeming all sorts to death with more dakka power than the omega.

Yes but that is true for almost any low-level ship working in packs against larger enemy.

 

[H]

ahhh, a beam team approach.... face off your hyperions with Ka'tans... watch the hyperions die horribly... the Ka'tans will too, but there will betwice as many of them

 

[cthol24601]

centauri are a bit harder unless I sit back and sniper with my own beamers. (then get called beardy for it.) :?

 

[Burger]

A Centauri beam team call you beardy for sitting back and sniping? Tell them to go look in a mirror, at least you have to put a bit of effort into it since your beams are Boresight and shorter range!

 

[lastbesthope]

Well I know Matthew still thinks the original White Star stats were fine, lower hull and crew and Adaptive Armour didn't half crew loss, Dodge 5+, the WS now is a battlecruiser by comparison.

LBH

 

[locarno24]

It strikes me the first lists represented the feel of the ships from the show the best and were the most balanced

I'd disagree. If I had to nominate a 'most balanced', I'd point at the Tournament list; no dozens of variants on the same hull, everything nicely at one level.

The original box had several problems with balance; the nearly indestructible nova-class, the ridiculously gunned-up maximus, and - as mentioned - the white star with eight unprotected crew are good examples.

In addition, the lack of the dogfight score means that nials were wiped out in droves by delta-V fighters, and the universal 'precise' trait on fighters made big capital ships even more prone to the big critical (especially the 'crew-to-zero' or 'ship explodes' vital systms results) than currently.

That and the fact that there was no possible reason to field a scout (with the possible exception of the shadow scout)

Oh. And the sharlin's 5+ stealth pre scout/scanners to full/superior technology. Hehehehehehehehehehehe!!!!!!

 

[Tankdriver]

Tournament lists tend to be the most balanced. THe old Star Fleet Battles tournament book made the regular game seem monstrously unbalanced and TFG were freaks when it came to balancing things.

 

[Greg Smith]

A: the gutting of the Omega
B: the over powering of hyperions
C: the trashing of vorchans (which by the show should be the Centauri staple)
D: giving too many AD to beam weapons so they overwhelm the game.
E: Removing useful battle and raid level ships for shadows so they completely suck at Raid level and overwhelm at higher levels.
F: Odd things like drakh guns on the rear of a certain cruiser.

A: gutting the Omega? It originally had 2AD forward laser. It did lose 2AD off its side pulse cannons, to gain twin-linked and 4 dice short range AF guns. Not mention an extra 20% damage.

C: The Vorchans did lose out a bit in SFoS.

E: The first version of the Shadows didn't have battle and raid level ships, they had one skirmish (scout) and one war (ship). Oh and a favourite moment was a Starfury taking out a Shadowship with a 6,6 crit - instant destruction and explosion.

My favourite overpowered ship form the original was the Nova - hull 6, 15" range. Load it up with Thunderbolts - gatling pulse cannon 3AD precise, missiles 2AD AP precise.

Second was the Dag'kar with it 24AD of crit-causing e-mines.

 

[Right Hand of God]

What's wrong with 24AD of crit causing emine? :wink: Seems perfectly reasonable to me and makes up for the lack of interceptors in the Narn fleet..... ok ok ok that just can't be justified. So some ships were distinctly overpowered and a few underpowered but the game didn't need all the changes it has had in the last two years just a few revisions to some of the ships

 

[Burger]

I'd disagree. If I had to nominate a 'most balanced', I'd point at the Tournament list; no dozens of variants on the same hull, everything nicely at one level.

Shadow Hunter with hull 6 at Battle level?
Sagittarius with obscene stats at Skirmish?

Sorry but the tourney list had the 2 of the 3 most broken ships of all time!!! (The most broken being the S&P Troligan)

 

[Tankdriver]

I did not really think the Troligan in S&P was that bad.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I feel SFOS was a backward step for the game, balance wise.

The tournament list was the best, agreed.

 

[katadder]

I did not really think the Troligan in S&P was that bad.

lol do you play minbari and own lots of trolligans by any chance?

 

[Burger]

I did not really think the Troligan in S&P was that bad.

It was the most overpowered, unbalanced ship ever. Better firepower than a Tinashi, with the same stealth plus hull 6 and a lot more damage/crew points... even comes with a Flyer!

 

[Target]

It comes with more hits than most battle lvl ships & then it has stealth.

 

[CZuschlag]

Truly, it was a ridiculous ship. Stating otherwise is pretty indefensible; even for an aspiring Devil's Advocate like me.

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok anyone even TRYING to claim the S&P Troligan 'wasnt that bad' clearly has no idea what they're talking about. It's more broken than a bag full of tourney list sagitarius, hull 6 hunters, armageddon prefects and original DagKars thrown into a bag and then hit with hammers till they all shatter into little pieces.

Anyone that event ATTEMPTED to field one at our local club (with the exception of a 'test game' to prove just HOW broken it is) would need major surgery to remove it from their backside