Dharzi War [Elric]

[pittel]

Aye Folks

does anyone have an idea how long the war with the Dhazi was going on and how many melnibonean Imperators fought in it (more than one?).

bye Pittel

 

[Loz]

Hi Pittel,

Its never mentioned in the books. Dozens of years, I would guess, and on many fronts. It was long enough to drain Melnibone of her core power, and force it to call upon cataclysmic sorcerer to defeat the Dharzi (who countered with their own).

Let your mind run riot!

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

If you read French there are moutains of material in a very large Dharzi project on the Dharzi Empire at:

http://perso.orange.fr/kronale/dharzi/dharzis.htm

Hopes that helps

 

[pittel]

thx for the french link. My french isnt very good anymore, but what I understand is

the Dharzi Attack started 3000 before Elric
2500 bE they make an offensive against the northern continent
2000 bE some massive battles in the sighting desert
1000 bE is the "quasi" end of the conflict
800 nE Pan Tang arrives...

this means the war went for 2000 yrs... this is long for 2 potent magical races...

any comments?!

 

[Loz]

thx for the french link. My french isnt very good anymore, but what I understand is

the Dharzi Attack started 3000 before Elric
2500 bE they make an offensive against the northern continent
2000 bE some massive battles in the sighting desert
1000 bE is the "quasi" end of the conflict
800 nE Pan Tang arrives...

this means the war went for 2000 yrs... this is long for 2 potent magical races...

any comments?!

Moorcock only ever says that the Dharzi, in Elric's time, have been dead for 10 centuries. Its possible that the war lasted for the 2000 years the French project claims, but as you say, that's an enormously long time - a fifth of Melnibone's entire rule, and if the war had eaten so much of the Bright Empire's timeline then I would have expected Melnibone to have retreated to Imrryr much, much sooner than the saga says it did.

My preference - and it is only my preference - is for a much, much shorter conflict that was still devastating for Melnibone. It makes more sense to me than a 2,000 year war which, whilst a cool idea, would surely have seen a very different Young Kingdoms emerge and have a far greater prominence in the saga.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Here are the only quotes from the saga which bare any relevance.

'The hunting dogs of the Dharzi!' gasped Shaarilla. 'I thought that they, like their masters, were long extinct!' 'I, also,' Elric said. 'What are they doing in these parts? There was never contact between the Dharzi and the dwellers of this Land.'
Weird of the White Wolf

and

'These are the Lords of Dharzi---dead these ten centuries. We're fighting dead men, Moonglum, and the too-tangible ghosts of their dogs. Unless I can think of a sorcerous means to defeat them, we're doomed!'
Weird of the White Wolf

Basically as Loz says, the only thing we know about them is that they have nasty dogs, and the last of them die 1000 years before Elric's time.

There is no mention of a war, the use of sorcery to defeat them, or even that such a conflict broke the back of Melnibone's power. The only other reference to Melnibone's wane is that it occured five hundred years after the Dharzi had died...

These are the people of Melnibone, the Dragon Isle, which ruled the world for ten thousand years and has ceased to rule it for less than five hundred years. And they are cruel and clever and to them 'morality' means little more than a proper respect for the traditions of a hundred centuries.
Elric of Melnibone

Everything which has been written about a conflict between the Dharzi and Melnibone has been pure speculation, which has grown into an 'official' RPG timeline. However, I for one love them as an excellent source of sorcerous enemies for the Dragon Isle, and accept the concept of a war between the two.

As for its duration of the conflict, I agree with Loz. It should be short and vicious, lasting no more than a generation in length. Melnibone at this time is not known for its mercy, and in my opinion there would be no quarter given, save for total genocide. A series of devastating wars which wreak ecological and magical devastation on the lands they fought over, until eventually the last Dharzi city fell, or they fled into the multiverse. (Rome versus Carthage would be a good simile of battles and timespan of such a conflict)

 

[Loz]

The Dharzi war most likely came into being in Stormbringer 1st edition, with further compounding in Elric! and then SB5 - as Pete says. I know I was referring to it in campaigns as far back as 1984 and that was based on what I'd got from the SB rules rather than from the Elric saga.

It remains a great and viable explanation for Melnibone's fall, even if it hasn't been officially described as such by MM.

 

[richard_watts]

I'd add one more quote to what you've already mentioned, Pete; or perhaps a better phrase might be to expand upon one of the quotes you've already mentioned:

'Elric stared backward at their pursuers...he had a vague impression of the riders who raced behind the pack. They were swathed in dark cloaks and carried long spears. Their faces were invisible, swathed in the shadows of the hoods which covered their heads...zombie-men, their dead eyes eerily luminous...'

This doesn't give us a lot to go on, but at least it tells us that the 'Lords of Dharzi' (which is presumably a place name, rather than the name of their race, as Moorcock doesn't call them the 'Lords of the Dharzi') have at least the semblance of human form.

But as you and Loz say, that's really about all we know about them.

In his scenario 'Stolen Moments' in Chaosium's Stormbringer supplement Perils of the Young Kingdoms (1991), Australian writer Nick Haggar describes the Dharzi as having 'an alien cast to their features...broader in the chest and slightly smaller' than an average human. Another of the Dharzi, the ancient sorcerer Pemmnetr, appears in Ken Rolston's even older Stormbringer supplement, Black Sword (1985) but his description in that book is so cursory as to be almost non-existent.

I don't know whether it was Ken St Andre or Steve Perrin who was responsible for linking the Dharzi to Melniboné's slow decline in his first edition of Stormbringer (1981), but certainly one of them did; because here's what that original entry says:

'A millenium before Elric's time, the Silent Lands were the great homelands of the Lords of the Dharzi, a non-human race who worshipped and partially controlled the Beast Lords. The Dharzi had outposts throughout the world, but when they began to threaten the primacy of the Bright Empire of Melniboné, they started a great war between the two Empires. Eventually the Dharzi were defeated by the Melnibonéans and almost wiped out.'

So again, no dates or details about the duration of the Dharzi war from this secondary source, though it's worth noting that St Andre/Perrin erroneously name the Silent Land as the 'homelands of the Lords of the Dharzi' despite Moorcock being uncharacteristically clear in saying, as you've already noted, that there 'was never contact between the Dharzi and the dwellers of this [Silent] Land'.

I agree with Loz that 2000 years seems too long for the war; 100-200 years at most would be more realistic, I think.

And the suggestion of seeking inspiration from the three Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage is a great one, Loz; it suggests a series of wars over an extended period; perhaps on a number of fronts (even potentially on other planes) before the conflict was finally resolved...

 

[Facedanser]

hmmm

Well the Romans and Persians (Parthian/Sassinid) were at it for several hundred years on and off.

A 'cold' war could last for many years I suppose, conflict as opposed to war solidly throughout the period.

I seem to remember (unsure where from) that the Melniboneans had a hand in the creation of the Dharzi. No reference though..........and I may be lying.

I always liked the bio-amalgam aspect of Dharzi magic as deliniated in various sources. Nice counterpoint to Demon Summoning. Of course not canon to the original novels. I used to love the adventure in 'Perils of the Young Kingdoms' involving time travel and the Dharzi wars. (or was it Melnibone source book) Anyways the one with the Heart of Arioch, the tower and croco-flys (crocodile/dragonfly hybrids) and a big Gorilla/Rhino beasty.

Witter witter

Edit: Gah ya mentioned it already..............It was 'Stolen moments' Sigh.............too long ago I ran/ played that one.