I had a question come up among my players during my last session. there seems to be a disconnect from how I picture traveller technology and it's capabilities, and how they picture it. Can any one give me some good example references of cannon traveller technology (Movies and TV shows preferably) that I can use to sort of bridge the gap between my vision and the players.
Describing Traveller Tech level
- Thread starter Sorin
- Start date
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Depends a lot on the background setting you are using... home-brew, Imperium or Dredd?
Even Canon has interpretation, I suspect mine is different to yours.
Film TV I always obtain influence from :
Silent Running (functional robots)
Alien(s) (low births, 1970s computers, big guns!)
firefly/serenity - the 200 ton free trader near district 268 reference manual (my general style and criminal elements)
Star Wars (Psionics note how the "empire" hunts them down).
My take on the Imperium is slightly darker than canon - although I never break canon, do not see too much wrong with it. The idea of noble service vital to the Imperial survival is rather undermined in my interpretation.
That is my 2 cents.
Maybe if you give some example of where the difference between you and your players is - it would start an interesting debate.
Film TV I always obtain influence from :
Silent Running (functional robots)
Alien(s) (low births, 1970s computers, big guns!)
firefly/serenity - the 200 ton free trader near district 268 reference manual (my general style and criminal elements)
Star Wars (Psionics note how the "empire" hunts them down).
My take on the Imperium is slightly darker than canon - although I never break canon, do not see too much wrong with it. The idea of noble service vital to the Imperial survival is rather undermined in my interpretation.
That is my 2 cents.
Maybe if you give some example of where the difference between you and your players is - it would start an interesting debate.
I suppose my difference between the players is less of a visual one now that I think more on it and more of a functional one. I find one of the hardest things about Sci-Fi RPG's is avoiding the "Push the Fix it button" syndrome. How to balance tech with game play and still keep technology realistic and plausible.
I find my self constantly at odd with technology where the players will say something like "Well in a high tech society there would obviously be a program, or machine to give me the answer to X" where X is the big mystery I want the players to solve through the Scenario.
I was hoping to find some good examples of Sci-Fi tech where the science is there but takes a back seat to the players own skills and ingenuity. Aliens is a very good example because it always seemed pretty high tech for the time but left the people mostly to there own means to solve problems. Is there anything else out there, or perhaps ways people have addressed the technology issue in their games?
I find my self constantly at odd with technology where the players will say something like "Well in a high tech society there would obviously be a program, or machine to give me the answer to X" where X is the big mystery I want the players to solve through the Scenario.
I was hoping to find some good examples of Sci-Fi tech where the science is there but takes a back seat to the players own skills and ingenuity. Aliens is a very good example because it always seemed pretty high tech for the time but left the people mostly to there own means to solve problems. Is there anything else out there, or perhaps ways people have addressed the technology issue in their games?
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Sorin said:
Have it give the answer: 42.
Ask the players if they are willing to trust their life to such a machine? Even if the machine thinks it's right, maybe it's accessing a database of old information that hasn't been updated, maybe there is a glitch in the programming, or could be the machine is an AI and out for revenge for some perceived wrong done to it by humans (or whatever race).
Push the Button to Fix "X"
Hmm.
Machines provide *data* ... they don't provide *solutions* as a conceptual thing ... or do only for very limited circumstances that generally require a human operator to oversee.
*Humans* are required to *interpret* the data to make sense of it in a way that expert systems programs can't reliably manage.
For example, say you have a forensics program downloaded on your PDA and are investigating a crime scene ... it tells you that fingerprints are there, and can identify them if they're in a databank you have access to or if you have an actual sample to compare to ... fine as far as it goes. But what does it actually tell you? That so-and-so was there at some point. That's all. It doesn't tell when, exactly. It doesn't tell what they did while they were there, or their intent, even if the fingerprint is on the putative murder weapon.
That's where the PCs *have* to come into the picture.
What you probably should consider doing is taking the "Trail of Cthulhu" path and assuming that the PCs will always be able to find the data they need to solve a problem ... and always be able to find it in time for a successful resolution ... but noting that a) *finding* the data isn't the same as resolving the problem easily (or at all) and b) a "successful" resolution means *neither* a pleasant one (though it will generally be survivable and, eventually, fixable, if unpleasant) *nor* one that is easily attained.
In other words, technology, of whatever level, remains a *tool* that the characters must interpret themselves.
That should solve any supposed tech related problem at any tech level in any SFRPG
IMNSHO of course 8)
Phil
Hmm.
Machines provide *data* ... they don't provide *solutions* as a conceptual thing ... or do only for very limited circumstances that generally require a human operator to oversee.
*Humans* are required to *interpret* the data to make sense of it in a way that expert systems programs can't reliably manage.
For example, say you have a forensics program downloaded on your PDA and are investigating a crime scene ... it tells you that fingerprints are there, and can identify them if they're in a databank you have access to or if you have an actual sample to compare to ... fine as far as it goes. But what does it actually tell you? That so-and-so was there at some point. That's all. It doesn't tell when, exactly. It doesn't tell what they did while they were there, or their intent, even if the fingerprint is on the putative murder weapon.
That's where the PCs *have* to come into the picture.
What you probably should consider doing is taking the "Trail of Cthulhu" path and assuming that the PCs will always be able to find the data they need to solve a problem ... and always be able to find it in time for a successful resolution ... but noting that a) *finding* the data isn't the same as resolving the problem easily (or at all) and b) a "successful" resolution means *neither* a pleasant one (though it will generally be survivable and, eventually, fixable, if unpleasant) *nor* one that is easily attained.
In other words, technology, of whatever level, remains a *tool* that the characters must interpret themselves.
That should solve any supposed tech related problem at any tech level in any SFRPG
IMNSHO of course 8)
Phil
The root influences of Traveller lie in 50's and 60's written science fiction, so it's the likes of Heinlein, Asimov, Niven, Harrison and Anderson that give the right feel (though the *particulars* of the tech vary a lot). Marc Miller was also the product of the US Army and that influenced his own opinions of what tech (especially weapons tech) was used. I'd particularly reccommend Poul Anderson's Flandry and Trader Team books. A. Bertram Chandler's Rim of Space series is also (and always) worth a look at - he had been a crewmember of a tramp freighter and his stories always have the right feel for small ships that need a resourceful crew to keep running. Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series is also spot on for Traveller - it even has similar limits on communication.
Two significant sources that should be avoided are Star Wars and especially Star Trek. Neither really cares about the laws of physics in their seperate ways - Star Wars because the tech is just special effects, while Star Trek because they just invent sufficiently high technology solutions to solve any problem. Traveller does have some magic wand tech, like artificial gravity and reactionless thrusters, but it's not all-pervasive as in Trek.
Two significant sources that should be avoided are Star Wars and especially Star Trek. Neither really cares about the laws of physics in their seperate ways - Star Wars because the tech is just special effects, while Star Trek because they just invent sufficiently high technology solutions to solve any problem. Traveller does have some magic wand tech, like artificial gravity and reactionless thrusters, but it's not all-pervasive as in Trek.
Golan2072
Cosmic Mongoose
TL0 is Stone Age.
TL1-2 is roughly Medieval.
TL3-4 is similar to the early Industrial Revolution.
TL5-6 looks like Earth circa WWII.
TL7 looks like Earth during the Cold War.
We're currently in Late TL7 or Early (pre-fusion) TL8.
TL8-9 is more or less cyberpunk; it allows widespread interplanetary colonization, a lot of space-travel and a complex information society.
TL10-11 is like Alien(s) - bulky starships, "technological"-looking (rather than "magical-looking) technology, but otherwise tech should still be more or less recognizable to us. Energy weapons exist but firearms are still very common.
TL12-14 is like Andromeda during the Long Night - common gravitics, gauss and energy weapons, augmentations and very common space travel.
TL15-16 is like Andromeda before the Long Night - AIs, vast starships, extremely common gravitics, very compact energy weapons and so on.
TL1-2 is roughly Medieval.
TL3-4 is similar to the early Industrial Revolution.
TL5-6 looks like Earth circa WWII.
TL7 looks like Earth during the Cold War.
We're currently in Late TL7 or Early (pre-fusion) TL8.
TL8-9 is more or less cyberpunk; it allows widespread interplanetary colonization, a lot of space-travel and a complex information society.
TL10-11 is like Alien(s) - bulky starships, "technological"-looking (rather than "magical-looking) technology, but otherwise tech should still be more or less recognizable to us. Energy weapons exist but firearms are still very common.
TL12-14 is like Andromeda during the Long Night - common gravitics, gauss and energy weapons, augmentations and very common space travel.
TL15-16 is like Andromeda before the Long Night - AIs, vast starships, extremely common gravitics, very compact energy weapons and so on.
Nuclear Fridge Magnet
Mongoose
Aliens is probably the best "general" example...
Communications take forever - "I don't ask. I don't ask because the round-trip on my request is, like, four weeks, and when I get a reply it's always --"
"Don't ask!!"
Isolation of remote worlds. No Star Trek last-minute rescue teams. By the time the rest of the subsector knows there's a problem, it's all over.
Have the tech broken by the players' shenanigans. Ripley & co couldn't shut down the overloading atmosphere plant because somehow a Dropship was crashed into said plant...
The characters 'need to do stuff' -- not spout techno-babble.
Communications take forever - "I don't ask. I don't ask because the round-trip on my request is, like, four weeks, and when I get a reply it's always --"
"Don't ask!!"
Isolation of remote worlds. No Star Trek last-minute rescue teams. By the time the rest of the subsector knows there's a problem, it's all over.
Have the tech broken by the players' shenanigans. Ripley & co couldn't shut down the overloading atmosphere plant because somehow a Dropship was crashed into said plant...
The characters 'need to do stuff' -- not spout techno-babble.
kafka
Mongoose
When describing Traveller tech...for the most part it is important to emphasize the still mechanical nature of it.
No sonic screwdrivers capable of reading computer data cores or similar other flashlights that you might find in Star Trek. Old fashioned USB connectors or even wires.
But, do give the future feel...switches, knobs, panels, etc. become holographic. Also, taking the thing apart is easy reassembling it to work is another task. Take the example of the modern car engine...in the past anyone with a little knowledge could repair a car...now it requires specialized technicians. So it is with Traveller tech...might look like a 21st century counterpart but look radically different inside unless your players have the skill levels and tech background to assimulate it.
No sonic screwdrivers capable of reading computer data cores or similar other flashlights that you might find in Star Trek. Old fashioned USB connectors or even wires.
But, do give the future feel...switches, knobs, panels, etc. become holographic. Also, taking the thing apart is easy reassembling it to work is another task. Take the example of the modern car engine...in the past anyone with a little knowledge could repair a car...now it requires specialized technicians. So it is with Traveller tech...might look like a 21st century counterpart but look radically different inside unless your players have the skill levels and tech background to assimulate it.
It's because it takes time for the skills and equipment to work on new tech to filter down to the everyday user. We're at early TL 8 but you need expensive equipment and specialised training to build or even maintain a TL 8 device, like your example of a 2010s car engine (TL 8) versus a 1970s engine (TL 7)*. Maybe this wouldn't be so much of an issue when there's a longer period between tech levels, as with the higher levels in the OTU: if a world has been TL 15 for 500 years, it might not be a stretch to assume that the average citizen could work on TL 15 devices.kafka said:
* Of course, in Traveller the TL 7 and 8 internal combustion engines are identical!
Fedmahn Kassad
Mongoose
darktalon said:
Well, for all intents they are identical... a metal engine using carbon-based fuel and internal combustion to power a mechanical wheeled locomotion system.
The fact that the TL7 is carburetor and the TL8 is computer controlled fuel-injection is really an extremely minor change. The limits of horsepower for this engine type have not really changed all that much.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Well the Germans can undoubtedly do cars... but just not cheap cars.
Above a certain price-point they make excellent cars.
Above a certain price-point they make excellent cars.
Dark Lord Skippy
Mongoose
Sorin said:
I have tended over the years to solve this problem by having the "answer to X" be something, well, human in nature. A murder (where removing some of the tech and forcing them to come up with motive), a lost person, a mystery case, etc. Try to find something that cant just be run through "magic machine #7" to be solved.
Thats my .02 credits.
Fedmahn Kassad
Mongoose
Somebody said:
Maybe within the bounds you are stating it seems like a big difference, but prior to the carbon-fuel internal combustion engine you had horse powered wagon then steam powered train...
Comparing steam powered vehicle on rails to gas engine wheeled to fussion powered grav vehilces depicts a much greater difference than gas/wheel to more efficient gas/wheel
It's worth underlining the point that the default Traveller setting assumes uneven tech. This is compounded by the communications lag - a backwater planet that's jump-3 from the Spinward Main isn't going to get a lot of traffic.
My take on Traveller tech *in general* is that it has to be rugged and easy to repair out in the field, since in an emergency you cannot assume any sort of supply line. Even in a civilised system, a ship that's jumped to the outer system which needs emergency repairs may be hours or days from rescue. The same applies to personal equipment. This does tend to give the gear a slightly lower tech feel. However, it should be noted that within a consistant high-tech environment (i.e. on a self-sufficient high tech planet, on an Imperial navy base, in the Imperial core etc) this will be relaxed a bit, as convenience and style will become higher priorities than ease of self-repair. Export equipment will be more rugged.
So, instead of comparing a 1970's VW Golf with a 2000's equivalent, you should usually think more in terms of a 1970's military 4wd with an equivalent class of 2000's military 4wd.
You can drive this home to your players (as brutally or gently as you see fit) by having a high tech widget they've been relying on fail. This does not have to be total failure - a recurring bug that will require repair at point of sale would be enough. I've recently had to reset my four-month-old PVR and format the hard drive to get rid of a bug that caused it to constantly report hard drive errors. I was able to transfer most of the recordings onto an external hard drive, fortunately, but if I hadn't had one I'd have lost all of that.
Oh, and I'd expect that Traveller warranties will almost always limit themselves to planet of sale. Far too hard to verifiy receipts otherwise
My take on Traveller tech *in general* is that it has to be rugged and easy to repair out in the field, since in an emergency you cannot assume any sort of supply line. Even in a civilised system, a ship that's jumped to the outer system which needs emergency repairs may be hours or days from rescue. The same applies to personal equipment. This does tend to give the gear a slightly lower tech feel. However, it should be noted that within a consistant high-tech environment (i.e. on a self-sufficient high tech planet, on an Imperial navy base, in the Imperial core etc) this will be relaxed a bit, as convenience and style will become higher priorities than ease of self-repair. Export equipment will be more rugged.
So, instead of comparing a 1970's VW Golf with a 2000's equivalent, you should usually think more in terms of a 1970's military 4wd with an equivalent class of 2000's military 4wd.
You can drive this home to your players (as brutally or gently as you see fit) by having a high tech widget they've been relying on fail. This does not have to be total failure - a recurring bug that will require repair at point of sale would be enough. I've recently had to reset my four-month-old PVR and format the hard drive to get rid of a bug that caused it to constantly report hard drive errors. I was able to transfer most of the recordings onto an external hard drive, fortunately, but if I hadn't had one I'd have lost all of that.
Oh, and I'd expect that Traveller warranties will almost always limit themselves to planet of sale. Far too hard to verifiy receipts otherwise
And then there is this annoying problem with those fake spare parts ...
The further away you are from the original producer of the spare parts,
the more likely it becomes that someone has smelled a fast buck and pro-
duced cheap copies, selling them as originals.
What you buy may look exactly like that Ling Standard part you need, it
even has the right serial number and the right documents, but it is just a
clever forgery produced on some planet in the Vargr Extents, and the mo-
ment you connect it to your favourite device and power it up something
desastrous will happen ...
The further away you are from the original producer of the spare parts,
the more likely it becomes that someone has smelled a fast buck and pro-
duced cheap copies, selling them as originals.
What you buy may look exactly like that Ling Standard part you need, it
even has the right serial number and the right documents, but it is just a
clever forgery produced on some planet in the Vargr Extents, and the mo-
ment you connect it to your favourite device and power it up something
desastrous will happen ...
