Demos fix

[Lord David the Denied]

I had an idea yesterday for fixing the Demos situation. Anyone interested in seeing it go back to Raid level? It could be upgunned at that level and pay for it in other areas. I can knock up stats if anyone would approve of the idea at all?

 

[katadder]

we tried something like this before - basically combine the demos and vorchan weapons - so demos with a plasma acc and same sort of damage line as a hyperion.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

That doesn't actually answer my question. Who's "we" anyway?

 

[Garibaldi]

Well, since the Centauri are (in my opinion) too fragging overpowered as it is...

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Centauri are far from overpowered. Various people here think the Demos is overpowered, and raising its PL to raid would be one way to silence that.

 

[Tolwyn]

I would have been satisfied if the Demos had been designed the way it was in B5 Wars, a further development of the aging Vorchan, effectivly making it Raid level.

 

[CZuschlag]

LDD,

We don't often agree on much, but this seems awfully viable. If it's over halfway there, why-not-just-go-for-it makes a good deal of sense. The Centauri already have a horde of good Skirmish hulls, but a fast Raid hull to fly wing with the Liati makes strategic sense and fills a hole in the fleet. Would kind of make it a Raid-level version of the Tikrit .... lives fast, dies fast, kills fast?

 

[TGT]

I agree bump up its hull and crew and put it at raid

 

[Locutus9956]

I tend to agree here that putting it back to raid and balancing it for that level would be the best solution. But if it does go to raid it needs toughening up accordingly, the problem with the old 1st ed Demos was that it was upgunned to a raid ship but not uphulled etc and just died far too easily to be worth taking (much the same problem as can be levelled at most upgunned hulls in ACTA such as the command hyperion, command G'Quan thingy etc etc.

 

[katadder]

That doesn't actually answer my question. Who's "we" anyway?

playtesters and matt.

 

[Dave G]

If the demos is to be regraded as a Raid ship, then I have some suggestions.
With a start date of 2260 it is 2 years after the Dargan, and so fits neatly into a revamped Centauri fleet structure built around the Dargan, Liati, and Adira. But reusing the old Vorchan hull.

If the Demos is based on the Vorchan hull then changing the crew numbers, or increasing the damage by more than a couple (to allow for local strengthning) doesn't make sense.
On the other hand including some of the new technology to address weaknesses in the Vorchan would make sense.

So increasing the weapon power as a weapons re-fit, towards that of a Raid level ship makes sense in both game terms, and in fleet design rationale.

Improving the survivability of the ship towards that of a Raid ship, by methods other than increasing the crew size or the amount of damage the ship can take, would also make sense in both game terms, and in fleet design rationale.

So adding Anti-Fighter capacity (present on both the Dargan and Liati),
Stealth (Dargan), Dodge (Liati), Flight Computer (Liati), or some combination could be used to present the Demos as a Vorchan brought up to date, and used as a testbed for some of the ideas later incorporated into the Liati.

It would also make the Demos into an interesting Raid level ship - fast, sneaky, and packing quite a punch but toast if you get past all the layers of defence.

Very much in line with the Liati and Dargan, and (I think) with the Centauri ethos.

 

[katadder]

well theres the Vorchar in my earth/centauri war pack.
if you reduce its turns to 2/45 and remove the GEG, flight comp and reduce AJP to JP, plus reduce heavy plasma acc to standard. you have what an upgraded demos could look like.
if you want the advanced one as the previous poster suggested then there it is

 

[Lord David the Denied]

So some people actually are interested then? That's good.

I was thinking a little upgrade in hits and probably a reduction in crew, interceptors 1, probably AF 2, the torps it already has, ion cannons it already has, and the Vorchan's plasma accelerator, possibly heavy ion cannons instead to really pack a nasty wallop. Maybe lose a bit of speed.

What do you lot think?

 

[katadder]

dont think it would lose speed, the Liati is faster so the centauri have proved they can build bigger fast ships than the vorchan.
heavy ion cannons would push it over the top, current demos weapons with a 6AD plasma accelerator wuold probably do. damage/crew similar to a hyperion.
wouldnt add antifighter as thats not really what the centauri do, and its a weakness of the vorchan class plus its variants, lets not try to paste over every weakness.

 

[Banichi]

lets not try to paste over every weakness.

True. Otherwise we would have to call it the G'Vrahn :wink:

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

I agree with LDD, if only to stop the incessant griping about the Demos, but I do agree with the chap that mentioned the centauri have plenty of skirmish level hulls. I also agree that really, the hit points, hull and crew probably shouldn't change. If anything was likely to change, it would be slightly more crew, to manage new and improved systems. But even then, I would be more inclined to add layers of defence, as opposed to bumping up crew and hits. Keeping the interceptor, given that SOOOO many people moaned that the Demos/Vorchan can be seen using that system in the show, would be logical. I'd probably go with the idea of perhaps AF2 and stealth 3+; maybe 4+. Drop the speed down to 12 with 2 45 degree turns.

I also like the idea of keeping the weapons fit on the demos as it is now; but adding a heavy ion cannon, perhaps 4 or 5 AD with twin-linked.

Anyway dave; perhaps you should go ahead and write up some stats . . . . perhaps I'm the only person that has actually answered your question.lol

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I'll probably do that and present my vision of the Demos-class heavy warship in a few days...

Thanks everyone.

 

[eldiablito]

If I may add anything to the mix, I too think that the Demos is sitting somewhere between the Skirmish and Raid level. To bring it in line with other ships, I would recommend:

Increase the Interceptors to 2
Give it a 3rd weapon, the Plasma Accelerator (4AD, SAP, DD)

This would make it VERY scary, but not overly so, like it is today...

 

[Enalut]

I am on the fense about the idea generally, but was thinking that as an upgraded Vorchan hull it should not get much more Hull and Crew score--maybe 1-2 each--but why not up its dodge--make it comparable to the Liati in that.

Also--I think it would be more itneresting instead of a 6AD F Arc Plasma Acc.--make it a 4 AD Turrent.

In short, make it a cross between the Vorchan and the Liati.

 

[Target]

How hull 6, int 2, AF 1 & extra weapon + keep the same hits & crew.
It's terribly vunerable to beams & has 10 less hits than any other hull 6 ships,.The weapon loadout will hard to balance,not enough & you won't take it, too much & it will be cry's of overpowering. Non interceptor races will hate them which is the current problem so that won't change.
The closest ship to what is being proposed is the
Omelos 28hits, AF2 & 1 flight
2x 4AD 24" AP,DD,SL
6AD 15" AP DD+MoD
a 4AD turreted weapon, 6AD out the other arcs that are MoD as well.

The way people deal with my Demos in our campaign is fighters providing interceptor cover( can be expensive on fighters ), of course we house rule that all fighters can do it, the weak weapon thing seems silly & can 6-6 a ship but can't shoot down incoming fire, interceptors can shoot incoming fire but not hurt ships.
It's the swarm issue with the Demos as well as the lots of firepower so going raid might address this.
Fighters being slower that it when they shouldn't is another problem, it's weakness that is hard to exploit ( we doubled fighter speed so my Demos are way more vunerable & of course a redundancy system also helps. All this reduces they superiority of Single arc firepower ships.
The funny thing about our campaign is we all hate the Olympus just as much.