Demon Time Limit

[midway]

As I said before, I am digging the MRQ Elric book. Just a few nitpicks...

In MRQ Elric, your summoned demons can only hang around for a few hours before they have to zip back to their home plane. How in the heck does a sorceror guard his mysterious fortress, or a priest his horrid black temple under such circumstances?

GM: You see ahead of you a slithering, multicolored moth-ape with the head of a vulture. Clearly a demon set to guard the door to the Mad Priest's shrine. How do you intend to attack?

Players: Oh, we wander back to town, have a few glasses of wine, take a nap, and wander back a few hours later. Is the demon still there?

GM: Um, I guess not...

Will this problem be addressed in the YK Magic book?

Is there some trick to this that I'm missing?

 

[Charles Green]

Durations are not changed in the Magic book, although there are optional rules for setting up a relation ship with a demon to call is a handful of times for a single summoning.

Spending a point of POW to bind the demon for a certain period of time (like a year and a day or something) doesn't seem like it would wreck the game, and would account for the elements of the Saga when demons have obviously been around for a while.

 

[Loz]

There aren't that many examples of long-term protection demons in the saga. The demon at Ashaneloon with the heart of nanorion is one long-term guardian; but as that was summoned by Theleb K'aarna (if memory serves), its a unique instance. The Elric saga is not burdened with bound demons protecting treasure hordes.

There is, however, no reason why a sorcerer, if he has a Pact (and most will), can have either a relationship (as Charles says) or have a long-term demon presence as a Gift.

The Runes to be found in Magic of the YK offer the sort of magical protection that would be used (and are referred to) in the saga. But demon guardians, when they appear, tend to be very specialised. So time limits on demons was a conscious decision in order to be true to the source material. In the old Chaosium game, particularly Stormbringer, it was way too easy to have a bound demon guardian on every door or portal - and that just doesn't happen in the books.

 

[midway]

I was also thinking of Orunlu the Keeper, hanging out guarding the dead gods book; and that silly critter that sat on Urish's throne. I guess those are more like chaos creatures than sorcerer-summoned demons, though.

Maybe such a demon infested world is anathema to the "magic is rare & powerful" theme, but I personally dig a more over the top, spider-saurian in every hallway approach.

I appreciate your response. Thank you guys!

 

[Charles Green]

I was also thinking of Orunlu the Keeper, hanging out guarding the dead gods book; and that silly critter that sat on Urish's throne. I guess those are more like chaos creatures than sorcerer-summoned demons, though.

Actually, both of these creatures are gods, after a fashion. Orunlu wasn't a creature summoned by a mortal sorcerer, and Urish's bane was a disguise worn by Arioch.

It's entirely within the themes of the Saga for powerful supernatural entities to be in the story, but not to have them be controlled by mortal sorcerers.

 

[Vagabond]

The "demon" on Urish's throne was not Arioch originally, but a demon
summoned by Theleb K'aarna. Arioch replaced it at some point.

Also, it bears noting that "demons" are really denizens of the Multiverse.
In Corum, a Nhadragh sorceror summons a "demon" who turns out to
be Prince Yyrkoon.

-V

 

[tarkhan bey]

Also, it bears noting that "demons" are really denizens of the Multiverse.
In Corum, a Nhadragh sorceror summons a "demon" who turns out to
be Prince Yyrkoon.

Vagabond

I was never sure whether that was actually the case or whether Chaosium were simply trying to avoid a potential witch hunt from fundamentalists who equate rpg'ers with diabolists.
The Cult secret for the Deathbringers would seem to suggest that it may be otherwise and this is the line that I intend to use.
However, I will have to look in my bookshelf for my Corum books for a further review of my opinion. Which book was this summoning in? I haven't read Corum for a number of years now.

 

[Charles Green]

The thing about Moorcock is that so much of his work is based on reader interpretations. We might all read the same passage and come away from it with wildly different ideas about what is being expressed.

 

[Vagabond]

Also, it bears noting that "demons" are really denizens of the Multiverse.
In Corum, a Nhadragh sorceror summons a "demon" who turns out to
be Prince Yyrkoon.

Vagabond

I was never sure whether that was actually the case or whether Chaosium were simply trying to avoid a potential witch hunt from fundamentalists who equate rpg'ers with diabolists.
The Cult secret for the Deathbringers would seem to suggest that it may be otherwise and this is the line that I intend to use.
However, I will have to look in my bookshelf for my Corum books for a further review of my opinion. Which book was this summoning in? I haven't read Corum for a number of years now.

I'll see if I can hunt up the reference. But I do believe Mike made this
point very clear a few times.

-V

 

[Da Boss]

I once had player characters from another game summoned by a Sorcerer in the Young Kingdoms...............

 

[Da Boss]

As understand it (and in my games) Demons are inhabitants of Chaos dominated planes of existence and /or those who have pledged their souls to Chaos from other worlds.......

 

[Loz]

Demons seem to be most commonly summoned by Chaos, but whether they're exclusively Chaos-plane inhabitants is debatable - and Law can make use of them. Myshella summons the Oonai readily enough, and they exhibit all the traditional hallmarks of a Chaotic demon.

But Vagabond is right. Yyrkoon is summoned in a Corum book and is described as a demon.

Its feasible to describe any summoned beastie that displays a malevolent intent as a demon, just as one might describe something utterly benign as an angel or virtue. Moorcock uses the term demon in all manner of contexts, so the real interpretation is down to the reader, the situaton and, to some extent, the plane of habitation.

I don't think there's an easy answer or definition. It should be whatever suits your campaign.

 

[Vagabond]

Yyrkoon is summoned by the Nhadragh sorceror Ertil at Earl
Glandeth's behest at the end of Book One, Chapter Four,
in King of Swords.

-V

 

[tarkhan bey]

This may contain a small spoiler.

Thanks Vagabond, just read the part you refer to and the Nadragh does definately summon the demon Yrkoon.
However,Yrkoon's line in reply to Glandyth casts a little doubt on whether this is in fact the Yrkoon of the Elric saga or another being who happens to share the same name.
"A Shefanhow. A Demon.I was human once......"
Considering the obvious distaste of Elric's Yrkoon for members of the younger race, I do not believe that he would ever refer to himself in such terms.
Based on my interpretation(of the game background and mechanics), it could not be the same Yrkoon as his soul was devoured by Stormbringer thus leaving nothing for the Deathbringers to work with.This is not to say, of course, that MM did not mean for them to be one and the same.
Anyway, on one thing we all agree.Its down to each individual to decide how their game works.
Mine works as follow's, Demons are individuals and are created as described in the Deathbringer's cult secrets. Otherplanar races such as the Elenoin, Grahluk's and Golden Ice hounds may appear demonic in form to their observers but are not actually demons. Hence the fact that they are summoned in a slightly different way. They are commonly referred to as demons, though, for the reasons that Loz states above.

 

[Vagabond]

This may contain a small spoiler.

Thanks Vagabond, just read the part you refer to and the Nadragh does definately summon the demon Yrkoon.
However,Yrkoon's line in reply to Glandyth casts a little doubt on whether this is in fact the Yrkoon of the Elric saga or another being who happens to share the same name.
"A Shefanhow. A Demon.I was human once......"
Considering the obvious distaste of Elric's Yrkoon for members of the younger race, I do not believe that he would ever refer to himself in such terms.

Perhaps. But, as Yyrkoon mentions in the Elric saga, there is a trade off
for power, and part of that trade off is losing some of your soul to Chaos.
He may be using "human" to relate to Ertil the cost/risk of continually making
pacts.

Based on my interpretation(of the game background and mechanics), it could not be the same Yrkoon as his soul was devoured by Stormbringer thus leaving nothing for the Deathbringers to work with.This is not to say, of course, that MM did not mean for them to be one and the same.

I'll have to check, but I believe this exchange occurs after Corum's second
meeting with Elric (in Corum's timeline), which would mean it occurs prior
to Elric's first meeting (in Elric's timeline). Which means Yyrkoon has not
been slain yet. Again, I'll have to double check. Also, I believe in the Elric
saga it is mentioned that some souls, even ones devoured by Stormbringer,
may still wind up in the service of the Chaos Lords. Again, I'll have to reread.

Further evidence that this is Prince Yyrkoon are the tone of his conversation,
unmistakably similar to Prince Yyrkoon in both his arrogance and impatience.
Also, his disdain for "lesser" creatures is evident. Oh, and Moorock does
not reuse the names of major players often (if at all) unless they are
supposed to be "related" in some way.

-V

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Based on my interpretation(of the game background and mechanics), it could not be the same Yrkoon as his soul was devoured by Stormbringer thus leaving nothing for the Deathbringers to work with.

I've always had the impression that time was distinctly non-linear in the multiverse. I could be wrong of course!

 

[Vagabond]

Based on my interpretation(of the game background and mechanics), it could not be the same Yrkoon as his soul was devoured by Stormbringer thus leaving nothing for the Deathbringers to work with.

I've always had the impression that time was distinctly non-linear in the multiverse. I could be wrong of course!

Well, I may have been wrong. It appears the summoning occurs before the
second meeting of Elric and Corum in the Corum timeline (which means
after the first meeting in the Elric timeline). This is, as you intimate, the
timelines are linear between events. But that is, again, up to the interpreter.

However, I still need to reread the stuff about Stormbringer's devouring of
souls with respect to those who have completely offered their souls to Chaos,
and what happens. The Yyrkoon summoned in Corum describes fealty to
Mabelode. Arioch is supposed to be the "patron saint" of Melnibone. While
it is possible that Yyrkoon of Melnibone does have fealty to Mabelode, is,
again, up to the reader. It is not stated either way. Though, I wonder if the
Making of a Sorceror comics have anything to say in this regard since they
are officially canon.

However, Theleb K'aarna's demon summoned to watch over Urish's treasure
is definitely not Arioch originally, for Arioch plainly states to Elric that
the demon was dismissed by Arioch himself. There is no need for Arioch
to lie to Elric since Urish is already dead, and Theleb K'aarna is gone.

-V

 

[Loz]

The Yyrkoon summoned in Corum describes fealty to Mabelode. Arioch is supposed to be the "patron saint" of Melnibone. While it is possible that Yyrkoon of Melnibone does have fealty to Mabelode, is, again, up to the reader. It is not stated either way. Though, I wonder if the Making of a Sorceror comics have anything to say in this regard since they are officially canon.

The comics don't mention Mabelode at all, although I've no problem with Yyrkoon having fealty to the King of the Swords at all - even though Arioch is Melnibone's patron demon. Someone as duplicituous and arrogant as Yyrkoon would have few qualms in bucking the royal trends and, as Elric notes in 'Sailor on the Seas of Fate', Mabelode and Xiombarg are 'no more powerful than Arioch' in the Young Kingdoms, so Yyrkoon may find a Pact with Mabelode advantageous for all kinds of nefarious reasons, whereas a direct Pact with Arioch might not be.

Yyrkoon's reference in Corum to having once been human is intriguing, but I wouldn't read too much into it. The stories are full of such little contradictions and trying to explain them to the nth degree simply ties your own head into knots (something I'm experiencing a great deal of whilst writing the Cults of the YK book at the moment).

 

[Vagabond]

The comics don't mention Mabelode at all, although I've no problem with Yyrkoon having fealty to the King of the Swords at all - even though Arioch is Melnibone's patron demon. Someone as duplicituous and arrogant as Yyrkoon would have few qualms in bucking the royal trends and, as Elric notes in 'Sailor on the Seas of Fate', Mabelode and Xiombarg are 'no more powerful than Arioch' in the Young Kingdoms, so Yyrkoon may find a Pact with Mabelode advantageous for all kinds of nefarious reasons, whereas a direct Pact with Arioch might not be.

Yyrkoon's reference in Corum to having once been human is intriguing, but I wouldn't read too much into it. The stories are full of such little contradictions and trying to explain them to the nth degree simply ties your own head into knots (something I'm experiencing a great deal of whilst writing the Cults of the YK book at the moment).

Actually, I am second guessing myself as to timeline issues. In the Elric
saga, Elric first encounters Corum before Yyrkoon is slain. In this meeting
(Agak and Gagak), Corum recognizes Elric from before (Voilodion Ghagnasdiak).
In the Corum saga, the summoning occurs just before the Voilodion
Ghagnasdiak encounter, where Corum meets Elric for the first time.
So, timeline issues be damned, Yyrkoon may or may not have been
slain when Ertil makes his summoning.

Edit - I should also add that the Yyrkoon summoned by Ertil is described
as having features closer to the Vadhagh and Nhadragh. Consdering the
relation between them and the Melniboneans, another point in favor that
the Yyrkoon's are one in the same.

-V

 

[Vagabond]

So far I got an indirect reply from John Davey, who co-edited the White Wolf
omnibus editions. He asked Mike about the fact that in the original editions
of King of Swords, the spelling was Yrkoon. To the best of his recollection,
he asked if the alternate spelling was intentional, to differentiate the two.
He believes Mike's response was along the lines of it was a typo, that the
entities are one in the same.

I am awaiting a reply from Mike himself.

-V