Delay and simultaneous actions

[Deleriad]

The Delay action lets you delay an action until a future Strike Rank.

If you act on the same SR as an opponent then the actions are considered simultaneous and "If both are attacking simultaneously, a weapon being used to strike cannot also be used to parry a simultaneous blow." (p83)

So the question is: if someone with a sword and shield and SR 17 is facing someone with a Greatsword acting on SR 15, can they delay until SR 15 in order to act simultaneously meaning that the Greatsword user cannot parry?

 

[dazzah]

I dont think the Delay CA was designed to be so specific.
I play this rule (its a standard Delay rule from previous RQ editions)

If a delaying character merely wishes to act after a specific character has acted, they wait until that character has finished their Combat Action. The
delaying character’s Strike Rank is then altered to ref ect their new place in the Strike Rank order and they act as normal.

If a delaying character wishes to interrupt a specific character’s action as it occurs, or act immediately upon a specific trigger, the character must make a test appropriate to his interrupting action (a Weapon skill
test if the character wishes to attack, for instance).
If the trigger is capable of opposing the test with a test of its own relevant to its action, it may do so. Whoever wins the test acts first.

Additionally, you would never get into that situation, if you play it out between players your'll see - put the player who who is planning on using the rule against a 2H player. When he delays to attack at the exact moment the 2H player does to gain a significant advantage, the 2H player will simply delay until after the 1H has attacked. Then the 1H will claim he is waiting for the time th 2H user attacks - eventually you will get to end of SR1 and have to make a oppose roll like above!

 

[Deleriad]

I dont think the Delay CA was designed to be so specific.
I play this rule (its a standard Delay rule from previous RQ editions)

Well I am asking about Delay as written in RQII. "Delay: The Adventurer may pause to assess the tactical situation. This changes his Strike Rank to the number when he finally does act."

Given what it says about acting simultaneously then the logical conclusion is pretty obvious.

 

[kurgan84]

So the question is: if someone with a sword and shield and SR 17 is facing someone with a Greatsword acting on SR 15, can they delay until SR 15 in order to act simultaneously meaning that the Greatsword user cannot parry?

When he delays to attack at the exact moment the 2H player does to gain a significant advantage, the 2H player will simply delay until after the 1H has attacked. Then the 1H will claim he is waiting for the time th 2H user attacks - eventually you will get to end of SR1 and have to make a oppose roll like above!

It's make sense for me that sometime two fighter spend rounds looking at each other waiting for the first to move ??

 

[ThatGuy]

There are other iterations of this tactic as well.

What if two fighters (Thak & Bek) are taking on one 2h weapon user (Krax). If Krax's SR is after Thak & Bek's, can Thak & Bek delay their attacks and strike simultaneously, since Krax can't parry both? And can Krax parry one and attempt to evade the other?

 

[dazzah]

Well I am asking about Delay as written in RQII. "Delay: The Adventurer may pause to assess the tactical situation. This changes his Strike Rank to the number when he finally does act."

Given what it says about acting simultaneously then the logical conclusion is pretty obvious.

I agree that applying the rules as in RQII rulebook would imply any character whose SR is before another can delay and attack not allowing the target to parry and therefore damaging and gaining a CA automatically.

It has been mentioned in previous posts that the RQII book taken by itself leaves many erratas and incomplete questions but that is why most apply rules carried over form previous versions. Im finding i've got a 6 A4 page file of "House rules" for RQII, which are simply rules which either that havnt been clearly explained or simply contradict themselves in different chapters.

I guess what im saying is your game would be very unsatisfying if you allow players to delay and attack simultaneously not allowing there combatant to parry or dodge, but parrying their attack without penalty. Common sense would say either a weapon and shield user can't attack and defend simultaneously either or carry a rule from previous versions of RQ - otherwise your going to have a nightmare situation where everyone is delaying to attack together and automatically score multiple CM every CA.

 

[Deleriad]

I guess what im saying is your game would be very unsatisfying if you allow players to delay and attack simultaneously not allowing there combatant to parry or dodge, but parrying their attack without penalty. Common sense would say either a weapon and shield user can't attack and defend simultaneously either or carry a rule from previous versions of RQ - otherwise your going to have a nightmare situation where everyone is delaying to attack together and automatically score multiple CM every CA.

Well it was a common tactic in RQ3 to delay attacks for precisely this reason. Personally I don't like it's re-emergence in RQII as it certainly seems to add another advantage to dual-wielders. However it would be good to know from the authors:

1) Is this a designed for element of the rules or
2) Is this an unexpected side-effect but one that they're comfortable with or
3) Is this an undesirable side-effect?

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

I guess what im saying is your game would be very unsatisfying if you allow players to delay and attack simultaneously not allowing there combatant to parry or dodge, but parrying their attack without penalty. Common sense would say either a weapon and shield user can't attack and defend simultaneously either or carry a rule from previous versions of RQ - otherwise your going to have a nightmare situation where everyone is delaying to attack together and automatically score multiple CM every CA.

Well it was a common tactic in RQ3 to delay attacks for precisely this reason. Personally I don't like it's re-emergence in RQII as it certainly seems to add another advantage to dual-wielders. However it would be good to know from the authors:

1) Is this a designed for element of the rules or
2) Is this an unexpected side-effect but one that they're comfortable with or
3) Is this an undesirable side-effect?

It seems to me that it is likely to be an intended part of the rules. It is precisely at the moment of attack that a single weapon wielder leaves himself open. Delaying to take advantage of this is an entirely reasonable and credible option for an opponent with a shield, it seems to me.

 

[Deleriad]

I guess what im saying is your game would be very unsatisfying if you allow players to delay and attack simultaneously not allowing there combatant to parry or dodge, but parrying their attack without penalty. Common sense would say either a weapon and shield user can't attack and defend simultaneously either or carry a rule from previous versions of RQ - otherwise your going to have a nightmare situation where everyone is delaying to attack together and automatically score multiple CM every CA.

Well it was a common tactic in RQ3 to delay attacks for precisely this reason. Personally I don't like it's re-emergence in RQII as it certainly seems to add another advantage to dual-wielders. However it would be good to know from the authors:

1) Is this a designed for element of the rules or
2) Is this an unexpected side-effect but one that they're comfortable with or
3) Is this an undesirable side-effect?

It seems to me that it is likely to be an intended part of the rules. It is precisely at the moment of attack that a single weapon wielder leaves himself open. Delaying to take advantage of this is an entirely reasonable and credible option for an opponent with a shield, it seems to me.

That may be the case but this does mean that a dual-wielder not only gets an extra CA over a single weapon user but, providing they have a higher SR, can always attack in such a way that the opponent can't parry. From a purely gamist perspective, that double advantage appears out of balance.

It also leads to the question of hero vs mooks. If all attacks on the same SR happen at the same time, then the hero can only ever parry one mook.

Finally, an initiative sequence is usually meant to show order of events rather than measure exactly when something happens. i.e. RQ is a sequential ordering rather than a tick-based system. I ran RQ3 a lot which was a, essentially, a tick-based system and waiting to the same SR was a common tactic. I can't say I ever liked that element of it. RQII risks being a strange mix of tick-based vs sequential ordering. A tick-based system with a random element (d10) really seems like the worst of both worlds.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

Well, you could say that even a delaying dual-wielder can't attack and parry on the same SR. I'm not sure that's 100% RAW - given that as you quote at the top of the thread, the rules refer to not using the same weapon for both in the same SR - but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

From a weapon simulation perspective (and assuming that the sim persective has something useful to say here), delay with the express intention of baiting your opponent into leaving themselves open during an attack, is a good tactic except in these two situations. (There may be more, but it is definitely a bad idea in the two situations.):

1. Your opponent is more skilled than you. They will use the fact of you ceding the initiative to launch a series of feints and attacks that you will be hard pressed to counter. Plus, they know that you intend to block and counter-attack, and will take that information into account. A feint is defined as, "any move that gets your opponent to do something predictable which you can then act upon." When you cede initiative to a superior opponent, you basically granted them a free feint.

2. Your opponent is less skilled than you, but either doesn't know, doesn't care, or is just plain unpredictable. They do something off the wall, catch you by surprise, and you end up in a bad position. This is low percentage for your opponent, but it can happen.

In game terms, this sounds like invoking relative weapon skills in some fashion, which I would think would have several reasonable options in Runequest II. You could, for example, simply rule that if both attack simultaneously, and both get the same level of success (both hit, or both crit), then the one with the higher roll is the only one that can parry. All other rules still apply.

So the guy with a 2H weapon can't parry either way. But if he rolls better than the weapon+shield guy, then he sneaks his attack in before the shield can be brought into play. We are talking fraction of a second on reation time. The weapon+shield guy is moving his shield to block, but it doesn't get to the right place in time. On the other hand, if the weapon+shield guy gets the better roll, then he gets to take maximum advantage of his equipment and pulls off the bait and counter.

That covers the two situations that I mentioned, since the lesser skilled opponent with 2 weapons will occasionally get in a nasty unparried lick, but more often than not will be frustated. This leaves bait and counter as a viable tactic, but one with some risk, especially if you haven't assessed the opponent correctly

[/b]

 

[Mikko Leho]

An important note: while the character with the greatsword cannot parry using his weapon he can still Evade the incoming attack assuming he has still CAs left.