Dealing with Magic Resistance

[Davey1]

My Question is how can a high magnitude magic/spell resistance be taken down without giving every NPC a very high magnitude Countermagic or rely on Dismiss Magic from a more powerful cleric/sorceror? - I've checked the forum and cannot find an obvious answer.

I'm running a magic high Medieval RQ2 game with 2 religious Acolytes & and a sorcerous adept. As they are experienced gamers they all targeted ways to increase spell magnitude from the start.

When I played RQ in the 1980's (yep I'm that old!) a character could pack additional power behind a spell to smash it through magical defences. RQ1 had something similar (although I was not keen on the reduction in caster chance - too fiddley). Why was this dropped for RQ2?

I know I can choose to allow it but before I do I wondered if there was a game balancing reason for the decision?

 

[Deleriad]

I know I can choose to allow it but before I do I wondered if there was a game balancing reason for the decision?

I can't speak for the authors but if there is a way of increasing the Magnitude of any given spell then no magical defence is ever safe. After all, if a mage has defences of certain strength you don't really want a peasant to be able to punch though it if they swing hard enough. So there are good reasons to have limits to what can be achieved.

As another point: the magnitude of a divine spell is now based on its caster's relationship with its god. It would seem odd to allow someone who is less faithful the ability to overcome a more faithful person's defences.

That said, I have occasionally thought that in a setting where magical dueling is common (e.g. Harry Potter, Ars Magica type) that you could import combat manoeuvres into magic and think of magical protection as more like armour. so, for example, if you attack an opponent with a spell and gain a critical while they fail resistance you could get a couple of Magical CMs and be allowed criticals such as "ignore magical protection" and so on. I tend to think that would be a more interesting way of handling this than allowing an increase magnitude ability.

 

[PhilHibbs]

My Question is how can a high magnitude magic/spell resistance be taken down without giving every NPC a very high magnitude Countermagic or rely on Dismiss Magic from a more powerful cleric/sorceror? - I've checked the forum and cannot find an obvious answer

Common Magic
The spell being removed has a Magnitude equal to the number of points. The removing spell has a maximum number of points it can remove, which for Common Magic is the number of points in the Countermagic spell, for Divine is one point per 10% of Pact skill, and for Sorcery is one point per 10% of Grimoire skill.

Divine Magic
Magnitude of spell being removed is 10% of Pact skill.

Sorcery
Magnitude of spell being removed is however many of points of Manipulation were put into Magnitude, this is independent of the effectiveness of the spell which is based on the Grimoire skill. So if a sorceror casts a spell with Range, Combine, and Duration, then each spell combined within the cast only has a Magnitude of 1.

For example, if I cast Enhance INT and Enhance POW on myself with just Duration, then that's two 1-Magnitude spells, which could be taken down by a Countermagic 2. If I put 2 Magnitude into the manipulation when casting it, foregoing 2 points of Duration, then they are both Magnitude 3 and would take a 3 point Countermagic to remove one of them, or a Dismiss Magic from someone with a Pact skill of 51-60 to dismiss them both.

 

[Davey1]

Phil,

Yep I get that but if an initiate/acolyte casts either absorbtion/shield (C/magic variant) with extension and the pact skill is say 61%+ they can walk unharmed through barrages of spells (incl countermagic upto magnitude 6) without anyone being able to do anything about it.
For the Adept Spell resistance cast at 61%+ (with manipulation/magnitude used to boost duration) provides similar immunity.

I know that a powerful chartacter with neutralise magic etc can knock this down but my problem is whether to allow a watchman/man-at-arms to be able to respond to an initial spellcasting effort to cast again with power packed behind it to blast through the protection.

Deleriad,

I take your point about peasants blasting through a spell provided by God to a pious member of the fighting orders but should "quantity have a quality of its own", as it does in hand to hand combat. This is the heart of my dilemma.

At the moment we have worked hard to maintain the logic of the magic system (especially the source of divine magic) and I'm worried that adding in the ability to smash through magic defences will undermine the system but I'm also frustrated that hordes of minions are pouring spells at these 3 and they always bounce off - basically not much of a threat...

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Deleriad]

Does anyone have any ideas?

My basic idea is to play with it as it is at first because 9 times out of 10 things that look like a problem on paper aren't in play.

Remember also that in RQII, much more so than in previous RQ, higher magic is in a different league to common magic. Basically the logic is that a common magic counterspell or disruption probably shouldn't be able to get through the defences of a competent higher magic user.

Can a person be overwhelmed by a myriad of magical attacks from weak magicians? That's a question of setting. The default in RQ is that someone with Shield Magnitude 7 magical protection is, simply, immune to pretty much any thing a common magic user can throw at them. I used to find previous RQ frustrating as a GM because any magical defence you gave an NPC could be overcome by a PC willing to throw magic points at it.

If you want to take that route one fix that unifies magic with combat is to say that if you want to use magical protection you have to "parry" with it requiring a CA. Thus if you get magically outnumbered then you may have a problem.

Why not just allow people to bump up the magnitude of spells by adding more MPs? Well firstly it doesn't work for divine magic users who may have dedicated all their POW. Sorcerers have quite a complex set of options for magnitude manipulation already, shamans don't generally blast their enemies with magical effects anyway. Allowing some form of "over charging" basically upgrades common magic at the expense of higher magic.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Yep I get that but if an initiate/acolyte casts either absorbtion/shield (C/magic variant) with extension and the pact skill is say 61%+ they can walk unharmed through barrages of spells (incl countermagic upto magnitude 6) without anyone being able to do anything about it.
For the Adept Spell resistance cast at 61%+ (with manipulation/magnitude used to boost duration) provides similar immunity.

Only if they've put Manipulation points into Magnitude - if they've cast it on themselves (or touched a single target) with no duration then they can put all 7 points into Magnitude to resist dispelling, but if they've cast it on multiple targets or combined it with Damage Resistance or Spirit Resistance, then that's only 5 left for Magnitude.

At the moment we have worked hard to maintain the logic of the magic system (especially the source of divine magic) and I'm worried that adding in the ability to smash through magic defences will undermine the system but I'm also frustrated that hordes of minions are pouring spells at these 3 and they always bounce off - basically not much of a threat...

I agree that this is a tricky dilemma. Remember, though, that Countermagic Shield and Spell Resistance has the major drawback that no-one can heal you or cast any other helpful spells on you. The sorceress in my game has just ditched Spell Resistance in favour of other spells for this reason.

 

[daxos232]

Okay the divine spell Shield says that "this spell protects the caster from physical and magical attacks. Each point of magnitude either gives the caster one armor point on all hit locations or one point of magical protection, as per Countermagic Shield, or a combination thereof."

If they are wearing armor it stacks, but only if they say they wanted the armor points, it can't also give them magical protection. They can choose 3 points of Magnitude go to armor and the other three to magical protection.

Unless they are wearing full plate and put all the magnitude to armor points they would still be vulnerable to someone with a greatsword or battle axe.

The sorcerer adept with Spell Resistence would have no protection from normal weapons. They are also vulnerable to enviornmental threats like drrowning, falling, or poisons and diseases.

And they are vulnerable to spirits when discorporated to the spirit plane.

There are lots of things they should still be in danger from that you and your NPCs can challenge them with.

 

[Davey1]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks, On logic I like the point about divine spellcasters being disadvantaged. The clincher for me though is Phil's point about healing - I'd forgotten that they have to drop their magical protections to share healing -especially the infamous 3 point party wide sorceror's treat wounds.

On spirits - you're right they terrify them but I was keen to find a way for rank & file to challenge them beyond lining up as canon fodder. I've been too lenient allowing them to fight with defensive magics up but also allowing healing spells to get through which is why it wasn't working.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Another thing you could try is to double the Magnitude for purposes of dispelling or punching through on a spell casting critical success.

 

[EricJ]

My Question is how can a high magnitude magic/spell resistance be taken down without giving every NPC a very high magnitude Countermagic or rely on Dismiss Magic from a more powerful cleric/sorceror? - I've checked the forum and cannot find an obvious answer

Common Magic
The spell being removed has a Magnitude equal to the number of points. The removing spell has a maximum number of points it can remove, which for Common Magic is the number of points in the Countermagic spell, for Divine is one point per 10% of Pact skill, and for Sorcery is one point per 10% of Grimoire skill.

Divine Magic
Magnitude of spell being removed is 10% of Pact skill.

Sorcery
Magnitude of spell being removed is however many of points of Manipulation were put into Magnitude, this is independent of the effectiveness of the spell which is based on the Grimoire skill. So if a sorceror casts a spell with Range, Combine, and Duration, then each spell combined within the cast only has a Magnitude of 1.

For example, if I cast Enhance INT and Enhance POW on myself with just Duration, then that's two 1-Magnitude spells, which could be taken down by a Countermagic 2. If I put 2 Magnitude into the manipulation when casting it, foregoing 2 points of Duration, then they are both Magnitude 3 and would take a 3 point Countermagic to remove one of them, or a Dismiss Magic from someone with a Pact skill of 51-60 to dismiss them both.

Aren't characters allowed to put extra MP into a spell to overcome protective magic? It doesn't add to the spell effect, it's clumsy, and it takes extra time, but it can be done, at least until MRQ1.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Aren't characters allowed to put extra MP into a spell to overcome protective magic? It doesn't add to the spell effect, it's clumsy, and it takes extra time, but it can be done, at least until MRQ1.

No, professional magicians can cast magical protection spells that actually work, as against the straw houses that previous RQ versions had.