Day to day lives of Starmen

[rust]

aspqrz, BenGunn, if you should need a trained paramedic after the next
round of your lively debate, please just drop me a PM ...

 

[AKAramis]

Actually we currently have at least 5 alphabets in use by large population groups (> 100Million people) as their MAIN way of writing:

+ Latin with it's various variants (US, German, French,...)

+ Russian aka Kyrilic

+ Arabian

+ Chinese (Granted, used by barely 1 Billion people)

+ Japanese/modern

+ Hindi

Not to mention Greek, Hebrew and various other minor alphabets commonly in use as the prime language in their nation.

Same with power nets world-wide, either the voltage is different (110, 120, 220, 240V) or at least the plugs are different. Or take GSM (mobile phones) with no less than 4 different frequency bands in use world wide, ISDN has two implementations. And the Brits, Irish etc. still travel on the wrong side of the road.

Cyrillic is used in some 20 languages, using some 50 charcters, but only 30-40 in any given language.

Greek is the basis for Cyrillic. It's usually labelled with a C, not a K, for reference, since it's named for Saint Cyril.

Japanese uses 1950 ideograms, and 144 CV phonograms. The ideograms are a subset of Chinese's 30K+

Various southeast asian languages use very distinctive scripts... most of which are compounding glyphs to create CV phonograms.

Good site for examining various writing systems: omniglot.com

 

[AKAramis]

Don't forget specie currencies... rare metals will likely continue to be made into collectible coins, and non-collectible as well... simply because they have rarity and beauty.

 

[aspqrz]

Sorry but your comments are as always:

+ Splitting hairs
+ Trying to prove your point instead of discussing
+ Misquoting/using only parts.

Sorry, but, as usual, you have missed the whole point again.

* Explaining, slowly, to you what was actually said seems to be a vital necessity, since you rarely get it the first, second or even third, fourth or fifth time. So far we're up to x2 for this round of discussion.

I made specific statements re ideographic languages, you ignored them and went off with the fairies somewhere ... so far, par for the course :roll:

* Explain, slowly, to you what the point I was making was, which is obvious to everyone else (see above), except for you, of course also seems to be necessary ... two, three, four or more times :shock:

* As for misquoting and selectively quoting, well, that is demonstrably your :? game, not mine. You did it so successfully in your initial response.

Of course, your posts also include long discussions of things that

a) the person you're allegedly responding to never actually said

and which are ...

b) irrelevant to what was actually being discussed

You're excellently successful at both :roll:

And even better at flogging dead horses ... you could give masterclasses on it.

So, if you wish to keep on flogging, feel free,. I'm gonna ignore it.

Phil

Phil

 

[Dave Chase]

...

Even the alphabet thingy ... no-one uses ideograms, much, outside of China and Japan, and for a lot of words (cutting edge ones, especially) the Chinese and Japanese actually use Latin lettering (or kanji, which is basically alphabetical anyway) ... so

...

Pardon me but can you explain your comment about no-one uses ideograms much outside of China and Japan?

I ask because every were you go, you see ideograms of some nature.
Or where you just refering to the frequency of use?

Thanks

Dave Chase

 

[aspqrz]

...

Even the alphabet thingy ... no-one uses ideograms, much, outside of China and Japan, and for a lot of words (cutting edge ones, especially) the Chinese and Japanese actually use Latin lettering (or kanji, which is basically alphabetical anyway) ... so

...

Pardon me but can you explain your comment about no-one uses ideograms much outside of China and Japan?

I ask because every were you go, you see ideograms of some nature.
Or where you just refering to the frequency of use?

We're talking languages. I doubt that Stop Signs or Pedestrian Crossing Signs or Watch for Kangaroo signs, or even the Apple Key, count as a language. YMMV, of course :wink:

Phil

 

[AKAramis]

Pardon me but can you explain your comment about no-one uses ideograms much outside of China and Japan?

I ask because every were you go, you see ideograms of some nature.
Or where you just refering to the frequency of use?

We're talking languages. I doubt that Stop Signs or Pedestrian Crossing Signs or Watch for Kangaroo signs, or even the Apple Key, count as a language. YMMV, of course :wink:

Phil

Some are ideograms: they convey intelligible communication of an expectation or instruction.

Some are Logograms: they convey a specific word or phrase.

They are symbols used for communication. Most working people see and use them daily... the logograms for men's restroom and woman's restroom, for handicap accessible, for turn only lane and for no turn allowed... They are taught in the reading programs over here...

 

[rust]

... and low tech worlds might still use that.

I am quite convinced that they would do it, at least far from the starport
region.
In fact, many low tech worlds would probably have a barter economy in
rural areas, and people there might be very unwilling to accept "money",
because they would have to travel quite a distance or wait a long time for
a wandering merchant to "barter" it for anything useful to them.
It could be prudent for Travellers to carry some immediately useful stuff
(pocket knives, matches, etc.) as "barter money" on such worlds.

 

[aspqrz]

... and low tech worlds might still use that.

I am quite convinced that they would do it, at least far from the starport
region

Again, the argument falls apart if you consider that we're talking about an 1100 year old Interstellar state.

There aren't any backward systems in any meaningful sense ... except on the furthest fringes ... and, no, even the Spinward Marches don't really count given their known history.

Roman Solidii, Late East Roman (Byzantine, to the incorrectly informed) Nomisma, Venetian ducats (?) and the like were all widely recognised far beyond their borders of origin for their gold value ... but these days most people (for the moment) prefer US$ ...

You can pretty much assume that Imperial Credits will be like the US$ of the future. Only if you're actually outside the Imperium is it likely that there will be any real problem with accepting them.

In an 1100 year old Imperium there is simply no believable way that a member world would not know of and accept them ... sure, if the world is interdicted and doesn't have space travel for whatever reason, all bets are off, but such worlds are not going to be common.

The problem is that the setting has painted itself into a corner ... not with the idea so much.

Phil

 

[MrUkpyr]

I go with the "IT WORKS" crowd. If you really want to mess with it, keep it as problems between the big polities.

So your Imperial Multicomm won't work in Zhodani space without a clip-on translator, well you can buy one at the Starport and off you go... Of course the Zhos are monitoring everything you say anyway...

When I run Traveller games I also go with the "It Works (IW)" crowd, with exceptions.

1. "IW" - if the planet is within a larger political body and is TL9 or higher.
1a. "IW" if the planet is TL10

2. When going between political bodies, "IW" if you purchase a modification device (translater - transponder - software - etc etc)

3. IT DOES NOT WORK because sometimes that's the story. "How will our intrepid adventurers acquire the needed medicine to save the Duke's daughter when they have no way to pay for it on the planet where it has been found? Tune in next week for the next episode in the ongoing adventures!"

-MrUkpyre
(playing since the little black books came out in a box)

 

[Dave Chase]

We're talking languages. I doubt that Stop Signs or Pedestrian Crossing Signs or Watch for Kangaroo signs, or even the Apple Key, count as a language. YMMV, of course :wink:

Phil

Thank you, but I was not talking about that generic of a ideogram.

Working in construction many things have signs that tell you things like

Concrete truck they have signs that show that you can be pinched or crushed by the chutes.
Loaders having a sign (picture) of what could happen if you raise up into electrical wire.

Things like that was what I was refering too. Construction uses such for 2 reasons.
1. In the past and currently with time and noise it is hard to take time to read print and even harder to hear things with the loud noise around.
2. More currently there are language barriers (as in many different languages could be primary with the many different workers on a job site.) and all the print would be extremely fine small font.

Basically, I believe that there is more ideograms being used in everyday life more so as we progress toward a world culture/interaction.

Dave Chase

 

[Woas]

I think Dave Chase brings up a good point. In a game of D&D a lot of communication is handwaved with the supposed universal language Common. I could totally see an extrapolated universal language like what is being described found in spacecraft, on starports, on weapons (point this end at bad guy!) and all over in general within a game of Traveller. It would be a quick and easy 'low tech' answer for a universal language.

I guess I was missing the forest for the trees... the communications road block I was having must have stemmed from my relatively lack of international travel I haven't done. I live in Upstate New York and have been to many parts of the US and Canada. Nowhere else. I guess converters for electronics just wasn't something I was familiar with or something in my realm of consciousness. I think that having converters would be an easy "it works!" answer.

 

[Woas]

Another question. This one is sort of personal preference and image of the game... not that important.

How do you picture the controls in Traveller spacecraft? Steering wheel/manual control or Star Trekish with automatic command buttons? Or some sort of mix or neither?

 

[FailedSpotCheck]

Another question. This one is sort of personal preference and image of the game... not that important.

How do you picture the controls in Traveller spacecraft? Steering wheel/manual control or Star Trekish with automatic command buttons? Or some sort of mix or neither?

I've got a guy named Mr. Sulu. :lol:

Seriously, I imagine variously-coloured, glowing push-buttons. Simple, effective, elegant.

In my CT campaign modelled on classic-era SciFi (1920's through 1950's), I've got old rocket-ships, tail-landing vessels with buttons, knobs, dials, needle readouts, lots of flashing, blinking lights and a bubble-canopy a la old WWII bombers. 8)

YLSMMV
(Your Light Speed Mileage May Vary)

 

[rust]

How do you picture the controls in Traveller spacecraft? Steering wheel/manual control or Star Trekish with automatic command buttons? Or some sort of mix or neither?

The ships of my setting usually have computer terminals, most of them
with holographic movement sensitive displays: The operator does not
press a button, he moves his hand within a three dimensional represen-
tation of his "job", configured according to his individual needs and prefe-
rences - a bit like working with one of today's virtual reality gloves.

 

[Dave Chase]

Another question. This one is sort of personal preference and image of the game... not that important.

How do you picture the controls in Traveller spacecraft? Steering wheel/manual control or Star Trekish with automatic command buttons? Or some sort of mix or neither?

IMU, it depends on the tech level of the craft.

The lower the TL the more dials and decisions that the pilot has to make.
The high TL's it becomes more push button (also assumes that space craft are more common but not as frequent as automobiles.)
At the highest TL's you could talk your way through launch, maneuvers and such. The Computer handles most but not on it own.
Then there are AI's, but they are very, very expensive and currently frowned upon by the 3I if too independent of control.

What this makes is interesting developments for pilots (or any TL different cultures.) I use a general rule for this
If you skill equals the difference between TL of your normal usage/training then you understand how to operate the craft (special equipment) with out any penalties.
IE say you have character with Pilot 3 and they are or have been trained by the 3I navy/merchant marines. (basically TL13)
Then they would not have any difficulty doing safe operations of piloting a spacecraft build with T 10 to TL 16 knowledge.
But put them in a TL 9 build craft (current or slight ahead of todays tech) then I would apply some mods or make them check with a bit more frequency against their skill(s).
But also allow for familarization over time. I figure about 1 week of constant daily use per TL difference or 1 month for casual use of equipment per TL difference.
So, said pilot using a TL 9 spacecraft would not have to check more frequently than normal after about a week of daily use of said craft.

None of the above is required of course, just something to add some flavor to the game. Just because you know how to hunt with rifle does not mean you know how to hunt with a bow.

Dave Chase

 

[aspqrz]

We're talking languages. I doubt that Stop Signs or Pedestrian Crossing Signs or Watch for Kangaroo signs, or even the Apple Key, count as a language. YMMV, of course :wink:

Phil

Thank you, but I was not talking about that generic of a ideogram.

Working in construction many things have signs that tell you things like

Concrete truck they have signs that show that you can be pinched or crushed by the chutes.
Loaders having a sign (picture) of what could happen if you raise up into electrical wire.

Things like that was what I was refering too. Construction uses such for 2 reasons.
1. In the past and currently with time and noise it is hard to take time to read print and even harder to hear things with the loud noise around.
2. More currently there are language barriers (as in many different languages could be primary with the many different workers on a job site.) and all the print would be extremely fine small font.

Basically, I believe that there is more ideograms being used in everyday life more so as we progress toward a world culture/interaction.

I understand what you're saying, but disagree (entirely, in fact) that those sorts of ideograms constitute a language which was my point.

I seriously doubt they ever will.

The noticeable trend over the last 1100 years is that we develop a written and spoken lingua franca and alphabet based witten languages have won hands down over that period and there is no reason to believe that they will be displaced because of their flexibility.

I mean, the Chinese government introduced pinyin so that it would be easier to teach Chinese ideograms :shock: to Chinese!

QED

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

Basically it was dynamic (read "Next Degeneration") style touchpanels and HUD-Displays somewhere around TL9 followed by holographic controls/displays at TL13 (all IIRC) The dynamic consoles allowed user configuration of the complete setup and included stuff like "control sticks" and triggers/food pedals.

So most modern ships won't need/won't have a "console" at all, just some seats WITH seatbelts (no second rate replacements for B-class actors here after all) and maybe a small "bump" in the cyling for the projector

The most likely near future way ... so called "glass cockpits" are already taking us well and truly in that direction.

However, developments in CATScan tech that I am aware of through my day job as a teacher (they're having a huge impact in measuring/mapping how learning works) would suggest that, in the near future, it is very likely that some form of indirect, non-invasive, brain interface may be possible for at least some elements of the control system, with Glass Cockpits being the low tech backup.

That's the thing about technology, it marches on ... and all existing (with no exceptions I can think of ... which, granted, is not the same as "no exceptions") SF games are always playing "catch up"

Phil

 

[rust]

However, developments in CATScan tech that I am aware of through my day job as a teacher (they're having a huge impact in measuring/mapping how learning works) would suggest that, in the near future, it is very likely that some form of indirect, non-invasive, brain interface may be possible for at least some elements of the control system, with Glass Cockpits being the low tech backup.

This idea has been used in a German science fiction series, Perry Rho-
dan, for quite some time now.
The ship's pilot wears a kind of helmet that enables him to "feel" the ship
almost as if it were his own body and to control the ship's functions with
his thoughts.

 

[Dave Chase]

I understand what you're saying, but disagree (entirely, in fact) that those sorts of ideograms constitute a language which was my point.

I seriously doubt they ever will.

The noticeable trend over the last 1100 years is that we develop a written and spoken lingua franca and alphabet based witten languages have won hands down over that period and there is no reason to believe that they will be displaced because of their flexibility.

I mean, the Chinese government introduced pinyin so that it would be easier to teach Chinese ideograms :shock: to Chinese!

QED

Phil

Ah, now I understand what you were trying to say earlier in the thread.
Thank you.
Basically, hieroglyphics just wont work any more as a modern language.

4 eye sea u

(works better it the eye was a drawing of an eye)

Thank you for taking the time to explain and answer my question.

Dave Chase