Cults of Glorantha Errata
- Thread starter Rurik
- Start date
Im going to vote for
1) a list of which Gods are in which patheon. enough been said about this I think.
2) Some way for a Priest to learn a decent amount of Divine spells with out his power going into the celler.
3) A list of who can teach which spell listed in the back of cults 2, again with out having to go through the whole book.
4) a list of how each cult views other cults.
1) a list of which Gods are in which patheon. enough been said about this I think.
2) Some way for a Priest to learn a decent amount of Divine spells with out his power going into the celler.
3) A list of who can teach which spell listed in the back of cults 2, again with out having to go through the whole book.
4) a list of how each cult views other cults.
homerjsinnott
Mongoose
Rurik said:
Spirit User? :wink: It has its basis in a similar system...
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
TRose said:
I have designed a way. This week I'll check with the editors if it can fit into S&P or Tradetalk, though TT might be the wrong place for a "rulesy" article. If it does not, the wiki might be the best place for it.
I have been using the following system:
Initiates can learn 1 point of Divine Magic for every 10 points of Theology(specific diety). Acolytes, Priests, and Runelords can learn 1 point for every 5 ponts of Theology. I do not use any version of Dedicated POW with this system.
It is a big departure from earlier editions, but so is having a Theology skill. It allows Preists to learn more magic than initaites, and those who spend more time learning a specific theology get more magic. It is simple and has no crippling of POW or MP for learning Divine magic.
Though I am not looking for radical departures in Cults errata from Mongoose - just fixes. For example I hate that Shamans have to beat spirits over the head with enchanted items to get them to do anything - especially so called 'friendly' cult spirits - but I'm not trying to change any of that in the Shamanism clarifications I'm working on for Mr. Qwiki, I'm only trying to make sense out of the many contradictions and inconsistencies in the book as printed. Once it is 'fixed' it can be houseruled away.
Initiates can learn 1 point of Divine Magic for every 10 points of Theology(specific diety). Acolytes, Priests, and Runelords can learn 1 point for every 5 ponts of Theology. I do not use any version of Dedicated POW with this system.
It is a big departure from earlier editions, but so is having a Theology skill. It allows Preists to learn more magic than initaites, and those who spend more time learning a specific theology get more magic. It is simple and has no crippling of POW or MP for learning Divine magic.
Though I am not looking for radical departures in Cults errata from Mongoose - just fixes. For example I hate that Shamans have to beat spirits over the head with enchanted items to get them to do anything - especially so called 'friendly' cult spirits - but I'm not trying to change any of that in the Shamanism clarifications I'm working on for Mr. Qwiki, I'm only trying to make sense out of the many contradictions and inconsistencies in the book as printed. Once it is 'fixed' it can be houseruled away.
Wow! This sounds very interesting and quite a jump from traditional cannon. Are spells constantly re-usable like rune magic,
or
are they one use and require a temple visit to renew them(as I imagine)?
This would make theism a more popular option among players. It seems like it will also streamline the system making it much easier to play. I have always hated the idea of the sliding stats; lots of eraser marks on the paper.
Have you run into any snags?
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
Magistus said:
Because zines reach more people than a wiki. So far at least. The situation might change in some years.
Rurik said:
Why the artificial difference between priests and initiates? If a runepriest knows less than a competent initiate about his god's Theology he deserves no more divine blessings. And what is the difference with Sorcery then? IMO the rule mechanics should be totally different. Dependence on skill % makes the two systems too similar.
Puck said:
I have them renew them as you suspected.
The only snag I see is that starting initiates only have access to a few points of divine magic, usually 2 when they first learn Theology. You could just use the 1 for 5 scale for initiates too, I think RosenMcStern would like that, though in the past Runelevels have always had an advantage over initiates - namely in reusable spells which have been dropped in MRQ.
Other than that it is very simple and allows Priests and Runelords to run Around with around twenty points of Divine magic again and still have a MP or two floating around.
RosenMcStern said:
There has always been a difference in that Rune level casters had access to re-usable Divine Magic while initiates only had one use. A priest is of higher rank in the cult and has achieved that rank trough greater dedication to his god through passing tougher tests, donating more of his time and income, as well as spending hero points to achieve that status - it does not seem unreasonable to me that they would receive more favor than just an initiate.
I also don't think it is at all like sorcery. With Sorcerers each spell is a separate skill, and while the magnitude they can cast it at is controlled by their skill level it is very different than how a Divine Magician casts spells. This system only controls how many points a priest may learn based on his understanding of his religion (theology).
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
This was the only really broken rule in RQ2/3. There is no trace of this in HeroQuest or Mongoose RQ. Or in the RQ4 draft as well. So let's not speak about this.
Then explain one thing to me. Why is the priestly figure totally absent from HQ?
RosenMcStern said:
That rule was never a problem in any of my play groups, we just accepted it. That one use divine magic counted towards your sacrificed POW for advancement in the cult - I always kind of saw it as a bonus getting a one use spell for sacrificing POW.
It is in my copy of the RQ4 manuscript - Initiates can only learn reusable spells, not one use, and only may regain them on their god's high holy day once a year. So while they can reuse their spells it is only once a year.
HQ handles magic totally differently, So really MRQ is the first version not to do this, but then in MRQ all Divine Magic is one use of sorts - it just does not take permanent POW to learn.
RosenMcStern said:
Well this is not HQ, it is RQ, and the RQ cults books are full of Initiates, Acolytes, Priests, and Rune Lords.
HeroQuest cults have different levels of membership in Initiates and Devotees, and many have Disciples, and some have Priests (see Chalana Arroy). The magic system is very different, and does not directly compare to RQ.
As I've said, if you don't like the difference you can just use the same scale for initiates and priests (or of course not use it at all) - I for one like the distinction between the lower ranks and the higher ranks. It is in the end just a house rule.
I have hated Dedicated POW since the first day I got the Companion, and I'll not use it in my Glorantha. I used the "Divine Pool" idea since early on and frankly it works very well and has more of the Traditional RQ2/3 flavor. That being said I like tying a Divine spell casters potential to their Theology Skill, and have used this system for a while now.
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
Rurik said:
Dario Corallo also used that rule, but it is just another houserule. RQ3 clearly stated you had to have 10 points of divine magic stored. The fact that almost everyone used a houserule clearly states that there was a problem.
That's why I said RQ2/3. It was about to be changed in RQ4. I.E. the rule was acknowledged as a bad rule.
I am not speaking about magic, I am speaking about the position of a cultist in society. A priest is the link between the god and human society, wherease an Initiate is a. A Priest should not be more "favored" by his god. He teaches the principles to others and leads the congregation, but this does not necessarily imply that he is the most knowledgeable about theology, although he usually is. This also happens in RW religions. Christian monks were not priests originarily. However, once it was clear they were the only one who had enough education to fulfil the role properly, all monks that qualified were ordered to become priests. At present most of them are also priests, simply because there would not be enough priests if all monks were not priests.
IMO being a priest is more a role in society than a kind of magic user. The old RQ rules forced a character to become a priest in order to effectively use Divine Magic. With Dedicated POW, however bad the rule may be for priests, initiates have acquired the proper role in the cult ecology, at last. This is more close to HQ, which I have quoted as a good representation of cult organization in Glorantha, not as an example of how magic should work.
I see no reason of considering the pool as incompatible with Dedicated POW. I do not like tying of the pool size to the casting skill, either. Remember that competent divine magicians are supposed to have pools of 50+ magnitude divine magic. With your system this means training up to 250% Theology, whereas other magicians are fine with skills at 90%. I do not like rules that encourage characters to put all their experience in a single skill.
Deleriad
Mongoose
I tend to feel that Divine Magic as written in RQ3 wasn't really a very good representation of divine magic in any milieu. The fact that the more an initiate used divine magic, the further away he became from being a priest was also rather wrong-headed. The two are related issues but different none the less.
I tried using a Divine Pool system in a couple of non-Gloranthan campaigns and it was sort of ok; the players weren't too worried about minimaxing so it just about did ok.
These days I have a modified system that I call Grace. Basically you sacrifice POW and/or do other things for your God to gain Grace. Your Grace gives you the ability to invoke Divine Magic, Rune Magic and otherwise call on your God for aid. Thus your grace increases over time.
Ways to use Grace:
dedicate to cult (rune) magic. E.g. you can use it to "store" Bladesharp 2. You still use MPs as normal. Casting cult magic then is a matter of making your specific theology skill (a skill name that I dislike btw) and spending MPs as normal.
You can also dedicate Grace to divine magic. E.g. you could dedicate 2 Grace to Shield 2. As is traditional with divine magic once you have cast it the Grace is suspended and you must pray at a temple at regain it.
You can also use Grace to cast "One Use" divine magic. Using Grace this way sacrifices it. Initiates can't do this.
Initiates only regain Grace on high holy days while acolytes, priests etc regain it more easily.
This system gives initiates something to do with their Grace and feels more portable to me to various campaigns. It also seems reasonably game-balanced. This is all straying off-topic somewhat. The divine magic system in MRQ is not "broken"; it's just not an implementation that I like and the less said about the arbitrary conversion of divine magic into rune magic into COG2 the better.
I tried using a Divine Pool system in a couple of non-Gloranthan campaigns and it was sort of ok; the players weren't too worried about minimaxing so it just about did ok.
These days I have a modified system that I call Grace. Basically you sacrifice POW and/or do other things for your God to gain Grace. Your Grace gives you the ability to invoke Divine Magic, Rune Magic and otherwise call on your God for aid. Thus your grace increases over time.
Ways to use Grace:
dedicate to cult (rune) magic. E.g. you can use it to "store" Bladesharp 2. You still use MPs as normal. Casting cult magic then is a matter of making your specific theology skill (a skill name that I dislike btw) and spending MPs as normal.
You can also dedicate Grace to divine magic. E.g. you could dedicate 2 Grace to Shield 2. As is traditional with divine magic once you have cast it the Grace is suspended and you must pray at a temple at regain it.
You can also use Grace to cast "One Use" divine magic. Using Grace this way sacrifices it. Initiates can't do this.
Initiates only regain Grace on high holy days while acolytes, priests etc regain it more easily.
This system gives initiates something to do with their Grace and feels more portable to me to various campaigns. It also seems reasonably game-balanced. This is all straying off-topic somewhat. The divine magic system in MRQ is not "broken"; it's just not an implementation that I like and the less said about the arbitrary conversion of divine magic into rune magic into COG2 the better.
Blackyinkin
Mongoose
Hi All,
One major argument is that MRQ as it stands represents Glorantha in the the second age, RQ and HQ represent it in the Third age. One of the major eventse that occurs during this age is that the way magic is used changes forever under the rule of the God Learners, Rune Magic especially seems to be a way of gaining magic that disappears or at least drastically changes in the Third Age. BTW Priest do exist in HQ, it is just that their role is more about clerical duty than magical ability. A wandering wild man who has sworn his life to Varanorlanth can manifest potent magic, but he does not have to preach, advise or be part of any priestly order to do so.
Simon
One major argument is that MRQ as it stands represents Glorantha in the the second age, RQ and HQ represent it in the Third age. One of the major eventse that occurs during this age is that the way magic is used changes forever under the rule of the God Learners, Rune Magic especially seems to be a way of gaining magic that disappears or at least drastically changes in the Third Age. BTW Priest do exist in HQ, it is just that their role is more about clerical duty than magical ability. A wandering wild man who has sworn his life to Varanorlanth can manifest potent magic, but he does not have to preach, advise or be part of any priestly order to do so.
Simon
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
Blackyinkin said:
This has been suggested on the Glorantha list, but never made "official" by Greg. And I do not think he cares much about it. But it is indeed a very good idea. I have also added, and restate here, that the three main runes of a deity are tied to objects (the physical runes) in the second age, and become "affinities" not associated with physical items the cultist must wield in the third age. Interesting enough, Malkioni, who use a system similar to God Learner magic, still use physical items in the third age (talismans).
I am absolutely 110% with you, Simon. Old RQ rules created a distortion in this area, possibly originating from D&D legacies. There was a mistaken progression in this, whereas you had
Initiate -> low power magician
Acolyte -> medium power magician
Priest -> high power magician
while in fact the titles represent a position in the cult organization, not necessarily how much insight you have in your cult myths, which is what fuels your magic.
HQ and MRQ do not have this distortion. An Initiate is a divine magician, with no restriction to his magic due to not being a priest yet (in HQ you have also Devotee level, but this is not tied to being a priest). It all boils down to how deep your knowledge is, no matter if you are a priest or not. Obviously a priest should have a higher score in Theology, but this is not mandatory.
MRQ has not got the artificial restriction for Initiates that RQ3 had, but there is an obvious cap on the divine magic you can wield due to Dedicated POW. This should be solved somehow, for both Initiates and Priests.
I used the initiates renew on high holy day since is was suggested as an alternate in wyrms footnotes yea many years ago. I also rejected dedicated POW as soon as I saw it, and am useing the older system until I see something that works better.
I get the idea that an initiate can be as good a divine user as a priest, but I dont like that there is no way for a priest to be better at it. Well yes you can do lots of enchantments but that is an expensive and clunky way to do it.
BTW, did truestone make the transition? I have seen no reference to it yet, but that could be because I have spent more time dealing with shamans magic as notbody wants a priest yet.
I get the idea that an initiate can be as good a divine user as a priest, but I dont like that there is no way for a priest to be better at it. Well yes you can do lots of enchantments but that is an expensive and clunky way to do it.
BTW, did truestone make the transition? I have seen no reference to it yet, but that could be because I have spent more time dealing with shamans magic as notbody wants a priest yet.
I complied a fair bit of work on the errata - particularly missing spells and problem cults - but I became distracted by my thesis, a small child, and a lack of feedback from Mongoose on some design questions I had which prevented further work (specifically the changes of many divine and sorcery spells appearing in Book 2 to spirit/rune spells).
The Initiate/Acolyte/Priest paradigm was a simplistic way of explaining the casual worshipper, Initiate, Devotee, and Disciple found in Glorantha. I did not wish to bring in a whole new set of terminologies and muddy an already confusing issure further. I was not entirely happy with the result.
Sincerely,
Jeff
The Initiate/Acolyte/Priest paradigm was a simplistic way of explaining the casual worshipper, Initiate, Devotee, and Disciple found in Glorantha. I did not wish to bring in a whole new set of terminologies and muddy an already confusing issure further. I was not entirely happy with the result.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Similar threads
