Cult Spells

[Rurik]

I am thinking about basically adapting the Spirit Magic rules to use with Cults for cult spells. Basically you would summon a daimon rather than spirit and learn the spell from it. A preist or acolyte would summon it and an initiate could learn it. I would use Theology to cast it as most cult members are not going to learn summoning.

Does this actually make sense in the big picture of Gloranthan otherworlds? Or are daimons not really that interchangeable with spirits.

Cults 2 states that there are spell spirits for every type of magic - spirit/rune, divine, and sorcery. Wouuldn't these really be spirits only for spirit magic, daimones for divine magic, and essences I suppose for sorcery?

(I haven't really given the sorcerous equivelent of spirits any thought as of yet so i'm not sure if essences are an equivelent to spirits or not).

 

[Trifletraxor]

Why use daimons? I found the old way with cult spirits works well. Glorantha has previously not been a place where you find a lot of daimons (is that the same as demons by the way? maybe i don't know what i'm talking about...).

But the idea is good. I'll also use Theology for casting spirit magic gained from a cult.

(I'll most probably throw the whole "rune spell" idea out the window)

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

Daimones (singular daimon) are the Theist equivelent of spirits (from the god plane rather than the spirit plane).

In RQ 2/3 there were cult spirits and all spirit magic came from spirits. In HeroWars/Quest the otherworlds were seperated into the Spirit Plane (shamanistic magic), the God Plane (divine magic), and the Essence Plane (sorcery). So the concept of cult 'spirits' no longer really makes sense, as spirits are from the spirit plane and not the god plane.

A daimon (as far as I can) tell is basically just a spirit from the God Plane - not a 'demon'.

 

[Trifletraxor]

A daimon (as far as I can) tell is basically just a spirit from the God Plane - not a 'demon'.

Just Greg mucking things up a bit...

 

[Voriof]

Daimones (singular daimon) are the Theist equivelent of spirits (from the god plane rather than the spirit plane).

In RQ 2/3 there were cult spirits and all spirit magic came from spirits. In HeroWars/Quest the otherworlds were seperated into the Spirit Plane (shamanistic magic), the God Plane (divine magic), and the Essence Plane (sorcery). So the concept of cult 'spirits' no longer really makes sense, as spirits are from the spirit plane and not the god plane.

A daimon (as far as I can) tell is basically just a spirit from the God Plane - not a 'demon'.

Pretty much. Each Otherworld has its own type of inhabitant. Spirits from the Spirit World, Daimones or godlings from the God World, and Essences from the Sorcery World.

Its been like this for a very, very long time as far as Greg's concerned. Spirit was a catch all term that he was never happy with as far back as RQII. Spirits, Daimones, and Essences are, simply, not the same thing and the magic that works on one won't work on the others... which is how it was strongly suggested that I write it. That said, I admit I'm not entirely happy with the word daimon but it is correct from a historical sense as it means "divine servant"

Just sayin'

Jeff

 

[Trifletraxor]

In RQ 2/3 there were cult spirits and all spirit magic came from spirits. In HeroWars/Quest the otherworlds were seperated into the Spirit Plane (shamanistic magic), the God Plane (divine magic), and the Essence Plane (sorcery). So the concept of cult 'spirits' no longer really makes sense, as spirits are from the spirit plane and not the god plane.

Its been like this for a very, very long time as far as Greg's concerned. Spirit was a catch all term that he was never happy with as far back as RQII. Spirits, Daimones, and Essences are, simply, not the same thing and the magic that works on one won't work on the others... which is how it was strongly suggested that I write it.

Mhm... but this is HW/HQ stuff. It has not been put into RuneQuest rules. In HQ you can stack all your groups powers together to build a giant Transformer, and do lots of stuff that don't work well with BRP. I don't think the new RQ should be based upon HeroWars, it should be based upon the old RuneQuest.

(so an essence is the same as a spirit except it is different, but what the hill is an essence anyway?)

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

In RQ 2/3 there were cult spirits and all spirit magic came from spirits. In HeroWars/Quest the otherworlds were seperated into the Spirit Plane (shamanistic magic), the God Plane (divine magic), and the Essence Plane (sorcery). So the concept of cult 'spirits' no longer really makes sense, as spirits are from the spirit plane and not the god plane.

Its been like this for a very, very long time as far as Greg's concerned. Spirit was a catch all term that he was never happy with as far back as RQII. Spirits, Daimones, and Essences are, simply, not the same thing and the magic that works on one won't work on the others... which is how it was strongly suggested that I write it.

Mhm... but this is HW/HQ stuff. It has not been put into RuneQuest rules. In HQ you can stack all your groups powers together to build a giant Transformer, and do lots of stuff that don't work well with BRP. I don't think the new RQ should be based upon HeroWars, it should be based upon the old RuneQuest.

(so an essence is the same as a spirit except it is different, but what the hill is an essence anyway?)

SGL.

Some of HW/HQ is in MRQ and some is not - for example the Runes are the 'base' runes from RQ, and not they 'everything has a rune' approach of HW/HQ (please forgive any gross over-generalizations).

But the otherworlds from HW/HQ are clearly part of the MRQ take on Glorantha as they are detailed right off the bat in G:tSA and again in Cults.

There is understandably some awkwardness retrofitting HQ changes back to RQ, but that doesn't mean it is not worth the effort. The whole point of my questions in this and some other threads is to try to get MRQ Glorantha to 'work' in a way that makes sense and is also game-able.

Which brings me back to my original question - does treating Cult Rune Magic as a form of Spirit Magic from Daimones make any sense?

Or are daimones not really similar enough to spirits that it would work that way?

The fact that Spell spirits can learn Divine or Sorcerous magic seems odd - which is why I thought there may be 'spell daimones' and possibly 'spell essences'. Or is that bit just a relic of Spell Spirits being ported over from RQ3?

 

[Trifletraxor]

Some of HW/HQ is in MRQ and some is not - for example the Runes are the 'base' runes from RQ, and not they 'everything has a rune' approach of HW/HQ (please forgive any gross over-generalizations).

Yes, don't you hate that mile-long list of runes on glorantha.com?
I only use these ones:

darkness-water-earth-air-fire
plant-beast-man-dragonewt-spirit
death-stasis-truth-law-disorder
fertility-movement-illusion-chaos-harmony
moon-magic-mastery-infinity-light
8)

 

[Voriof]

In RQ 2/3 there were cult spirits and all spirit magic came from spirits. In HeroWars/Quest the otherworlds were seperated into the Spirit Plane (shamanistic magic), the God Plane (divine magic), and the Essence Plane (sorcery). So the concept of cult 'spirits' no longer really makes sense, as spirits are from the spirit plane and not the god plane.

Its been like this for a very, very long time as far as Greg's concerned. Spirit was a catch all term that he was never happy with as far back as RQII. Spirits, Daimones, and Essences are, simply, not the same thing and the magic that works on one won't work on the others... which is how it was strongly suggested that I write it.

Mhm... but this is HW/HQ stuff. It has not been put into RuneQuest rules. In HQ you can stack all your groups powers together to build a giant Transformer, and do lots of stuff that don't work well with BRP. I don't think the new RQ should be based upon HeroWars, it should be based upon the old RuneQuest.

(so an essence is the same as a spirit except it is different, but what the hill is an essence anyway?)

SGL.

Whether you like it or not, I was asked to write about Glorantha. And considerable discussion with Greg happened about how Glorantha would function in the MRQ framework and how much of how Glorantha worked existed outside the framework of the basic MRQ rules.

These discussions formed the basis of the Cults of Glorantha book(s) and the rules reflecting Gloranthan realties. If you don't like them, that's fine. Don't use them. But then don't be too surprised if your version of Glorantha doesn't fit as well as it ought. Last time I checked, 1981 was about 25 years ago.

As has been said several times before an essence is sorcerous energy. Spirits are spirit energy, etc. Its not rocket science. Germans are from Germany and Essences are from the Essence Plane.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Last time I checked, 1981 was about 25 years ago.

26 Actually. :twisted:

As has been said several times before an essence is sorcerous energy. Spirits are spirit energy, etc. Its not rocket science. Germans are from Germany and Essences are from the Essence Plane.

If I may interject myself into the middle of a potentially dangerous discussion would you say my idea of using daimones as spell spirits to teach cult spells as wrong then in a Glorantha that does not vary much from Gregs vision?

 

[Voriof]

Last time I checked, 1981 was about 25 years ago.

26 Actually. :twisted:

See? Even more out of date than I thought.

As has been said several times before an essence is sorcerous energy. Spirits are spirit energy, etc. Its not rocket science. Germans are from Germany and Essences are from the Essence Plane.

If I may interject myself into the middle of a potentially dangerous discussion would you say my idea of using daimones as spell spirits to teach cult spells as wrong then in a Glorantha that does not vary much from Gregs vision?

No, it works for me. Having daimones teaching rune spells works for me. I think I had written something to that effect at some point in Cults under spell teaching. Personally, I am now unsure what mechanisms MRQ uses to teach spells for various kinds of magic. I know what it ought to be but whether or not the rules reflect the Gloranthan realities, I have no idea without sitting back down and re-reading things.

Theoretically, divine magic is taught by going on a minor heroquest and awakening the right divine power within yourself. With Divine Magic being lost, I suppose it becomes just where you are putting your sacrifices that month... This month, I'm going to give Vangath the Flyer my cattle and attention (and learn that Fly spell) but next time, I think that I will embrace the myths of Yavor Lightning and learn a few points of Lightning Strike instead.

Magic, in Glorantha, usually involves forming a link with the appropriate Otherworld (or making yourself a vessel for magic derived from the Mundane World). Theism is pretty obvious as is Spirit. Sorcery may just be simply getting access to the grimoire and then spending a lot of time refining your various spell-lores. I do not think that MRQ has explictly stated what method that one learns Rune Magic. I prefer spells teaching entities as that allows one to keep some sort of cult based control. I am uncomfortable with the conversion of many old Divine Spells to Runespells, as it creates considerble grounds for abuse.

Jeff

 

[frogspawner]

I am thinking about basically adapting the Spirit Magic rules to use with Cults for cult spells. Basically you would summon a daimon rather than spirit and learn the spell from it. A preist or acolyte would summon it and an initiate could learn it. I would use Theology to cast it...

This seems fine to me. Can't say I'm bothered what spell-spirits are called (and the debate about it seems rather silly). I personally would extend teaching to lay members too (for common/folk magic). And having just one skill for spell-casting (for spells of your cult/pantheon) is eminently sensible.

 

[Sinisalo]

Page 41 of Glorantha Second Age:

When talking about the Orlanthi....
"We get a little bit of magic from spirits, especially folk magic that benefits a clan.....Clans draw on their wyter spirits and their ancestors. Also one of Orlanth's brothers, Kolat, is master of wind spirits."

Therefore you can get charms from your ancestors for the following runes:
Death, Harmony, Life, Man, Spirit (page 20, Cults of Glorantha Part Deux)
I haven't found Kolat yet but I expect you can get an Air rune there.

Remember charms are basically integrated runes so once you've got them you can learn your rune spells elsewhere (ie, your Orlanth priest). Also there are many more local spirits in Dragon Pass which the Orlanthi have a relationship with such as Ganval and any others you feel like making up. I would also suggest various hedge-witchery works like this also.

As for daimones versus spirits... they are really just different words. If you want to be technical about it the above quote says wyters are spirits which I find unlikely but I don't think that is really a technical statement. What it seems to be using is a commonly understandable word for an otherworldly entity. But unlike the real spirit worshippers these Orlanthi spirits are mostly physical or robust just like the Orlanthi themselves. They are otherworldly entities that fit into the Orlanthi world view and therefore have a different look and feel from other cultures' otherworldly entities. Spirit works for me because it is an english not a greek word and my players are a bit thick, bless 'em.

A lot of this development of Glorantha took place before Herowars, by the way, on the old Runequest Digest, in King of Sartar and King of Dragon Pass. Before then the Orlanthi were a cross between Classical Greeks and Ancient Celts living in villages governed by a Sheriff and a Holy Prostitute. I'm afraid those of us who tried to help Glorantha survive during the 90s grew out of that.

You may not like the Heroquest system (I think parts of it are batty) but you have got to like the huge expansion of subcults for Orlanth and Ernalda, the powerful and subtle magic, the guardians (a sort of allied spirit for the whole party), characterful magic items and useful spiritual entities to negotiate with. All that can be converted to Runequest very very easily which is what I will be doing. First things first, write a divine spell for Vinga called Run Up Tree.

 

[Voriof]

Page 41 of Glorantha Second Age:

First things first, write a divine spell for Vinga called Run Up Tree.

It was going to be a cult rune spell. And I was going to make a "run on treetops" divine spell too. Space considerations, alas, conspired against me.

Jeff "And I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those damned kids!" Kyer

 

[Trifletraxor]

Whether you like it or not, I was asked to write about Glorantha. And considerable discussion with Greg happened about how Glorantha would function in the MRQ framework and how much of how Glorantha worked existed outside the framework of the basic MRQ rules.

Chill down man, I like that they've brought over a heroquest guy to write for them as you have a much better understanding of Glorantha than the in-house writers. That said, I will probably not feel that everything you write fits in with the Glorantha I plan to play in.

These discussions formed the basis of the Cults of Glorantha book(s) and the rules reflecting Gloranthan realties. If you don't like them, that's fine. Don't use them. But then don't be too surprised if your version of Glorantha doesn't fit as well as it ought. Last time I checked, 1981 was about 25 years ago.

Oh, it fits well. Don't you worry.

As has been said several times before an essence is sorcerous energy. Spirits are spirit energy, etc. Its not rocket science. Germans are from Germany and Essences are from the Essence Plane.

So basically, they're the same, just a bit different names and planes.

SGL.

edit: mucked up the quoting part.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

So basically, they're the same, just a bit different names and planes.

SGL.

Yes -ish.
I think you probably could get all caught up on lots of technicalities if you really wanted to, and could probably find an exception to every rule. However, from a Character point of view, calling all otherworldly beings "Spirits" is fine (as a Player or a GM you might want to distinguish between them, but most characters don't care, any more than most laymen need to distinguish between sub-atomic paritcles...)

I think a broad rule of thumb is that
Spirits are generally disembodied, but can take on a physical aspect via posessoin
Daimones are always have a physical form (at least in the middle world)
Essences I'm less sure of. I think they may be generally disembodied on the essence planes, but must take on a physical form to interact with the middle world

 

[soltakss]

Well, if you ignore the fact that HeroQuest has specific spells and feats that only work against certain types such as daimones, spirits and essences, then, yes, they are all the same.

It gets a bit silly when you learn there are three/four types of horses, one from each of the otherworlds.

A horse isn't a horse, isn't a horse.

 

[Sinisalo]

So basically, they're the same, just a bit different names and planes.

Sort of. It's a bit like saying zebras and horses are basically the same or Islam and Christianity because they share Jesus and Abraham. The scholars amongst us would say yes, the vast majority would say not really.

Your average Orlanthi has as much chance of resisting spirits as an american indian has of resisting smallpox. Spirits are mostly alien to them, they don't really belong in their world. Those cases where Orlanthi do have techniques to fight off spirits (suing a ghost in front of the clan moot for damages, etc) I would postulate that that ghost wasn't a spirit at all but a disembodied angry soul something that is understood to the local culture. You can't sue somebody who doesn't recognise your courts after all. Of course, I would probably call that ghost a spirit in play.

This all begs the question if an Ernalda priestess casts discorporation and a shaman discorporates whether they will see each other on the other side.

I think a broad rule of thumb is that
Spirits are generally disembodied, but can take on a physical aspect via posessoin
Daimones are always have a physical form (at least in the middle world)
Essences I'm less sure of. I think they may be generally disembodied on the essence planes, but must take on a physical form to interact with the middle world

In my opinion:
[a] Spirits - Unconscious but mostly personalised otherworld entitites that belong to those who worship spirits.
Daimones - mostly physical, conscious and intelligent entities that belong to those who worship gods.
[c] Essences - Mostly unpersonalised, archetypal forces that represent an idea. Mostly unphysical but often reside in objects. Belongs to those who worship ideas.

I believe there is a progression in human consciousness being hinted at here as well as a refusal to accept that each Gloranthan culture occupies the same mental world.

All my own opinion of course

 

[Rurik]

Is it true that Daimones are always physical? I had not picked up on that.

Is not a Wyter a daimon? I never say Wyters as physical.

Or is it that in the case of Wyters and other wind daimones they are physical in the same sense as an air elemental is physical.

I had interpreted daimones as pretty much just spirits but from the God Plane rather than the Spirit Plane.

 

[Voriof]

Is it true that Daimones are always physical? I had not picked up on that.

Not necessarily.

Is not a Wyter a daimon? I never say Wyters as physical.

Usually, yes. Particularly among the primarily theist Orlanthi peoples. Though often they are drawn from the Natural World and hence might be anything.

Wyters are guardians. Not all guardians are wyters.

Or is it that in the case of Wyters and other wind daimones they are physical in the same sense as an air elemental is physical.

Eeeeeeyes. More or less.

I had interpreted daimones as pretty much just spirits but from the God Plane rather than the Spirit Plane.

Sure. That works for me as a first order approximation.

Jeff