CTA:SF Ship record sheets

[GalagaGalaxian]

Several years ago, when my friends and I used to play the original, B5, version of Call to Arms we used some ship record sheets we got off the internet. They were quite handy for keeping track of ships in an organized fashion. Sadly I lost them long ago in a hard drive failure.

However, with the Star Fleet version coming out I figured I'd try my hand at making some. I have a few questions however. Would people be interested in such a thing? Would Mongoose and ADB allow me to produce and provide these things to others (free of charge, of course)? Only the stats would be on the sheets, no rules or references.

This is a the basic concept/layout work I whipped together in Paint:

And here is a link with the two prototypes I've made so far, a blank template and the Constitution Heavy Cruiser (based on the stats from a Planet Mongoose article).
Mediafire link

Any thoughts or opinions? Critique on the layouts? Suggestions?

 

[Iron Domokun]

Packs of Ship sheets like that for ACTA already exist; you can pre-order them.

Would Mongoose and ADB allow me to produce and provide these things to others (free of charge, of course)?

Unofficial answer: I don't know what Mongoose's policy is, but I'm pretty sure that ADB will not allow such things to be distributed because of their license restrictions. What you do for yourself and use in your own games is one thing; if you distribute them, even for free, it's another. Hopefully Jean or another ADB staffer will come along and give us the good oil on what's allowable, but in the meantime I'd hold back on distributing anything like that.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

Ah, I see, didn't realize that such reference sheets had become an official product since the B5 days. I didn't see anything like it in the mongoose store for SF or NA, but maybe I missed it? I actually found those old reference sheet through a post on the old Mongoose B5:ACTA forums, so figured a SF version might be ok. I guess I should've PM'd this to Msprange or a mod or something before I made a post about it.

I feel kinda foolish now.

 

[Rick]

Ah, don't worry Galagagaxian - I would've made the same mistake - I also had no idea that ACTA ship sheets were not allowed to be shown - certainly other posts have put up stats for various ships for ACTA:SF. One slight criticism - where you've put a grey block on each of the Critical systems displays - I might've put that where the 'escalate' trait first comes into effect, but I'm not sure if the criticals chart will be similiar to the ACTA:NA one.

Packs of Ship sheets like that for ACTA already exist; you can pre-order them.

Really, Iron Domokun? I had to make my own - if you'd be so kind as to provide the link for where these might be found?

 

[Iron Domokun]

I was referring to the Star Fleet Reference cards. Looks like these have been pushed back to February though, which is weird, because the Australian distributor for ACTASF has them up for pre-order.

 

[Rick]

I was referring to the Star Fleet Reference cards. Looks like these have been pushed back to February though, which is weird, because the Australian distributor for ACTASF has them up for pre-order.

Each release of ACTA has been promised a set of official Mongoose reference cards. Each sets' release was put back due to very reasonable concerns or different priorities - got no quibbles with that at all. What that has meant, however, is that every ACTA player has had to 'make do' as GalagaGaxian has done. Think they're quite good, actually!

The release of the SF cards might actually be even later than that - if you look at the release schedule, Star Fleet's November release has been pushed back into December, so it's likely that a scheduled Feb release will actually be March. At least.....

 

[Jean]

This is an unofficial official answer.

I have a strong feeling that SVC would not like those distributed. When the "real" ones come out, it would likely kill sales -- why buy something you can get for free is the response we frequently hear. It's one thing to do a sample stat ship; it's another to produce one of everything.

I know it sounds crass, but both Mongoose and ADB have to make money at this business. At ADB, we've already found out that "free" kills sales of better versions.

Do you want me to get the official official response?

I think some of the release date creep will back off since we've done the first rulebook, realized how much time it takes to get something done, and have planned that extra time into the schedule. While Marketing (that's me) wanted ACTASF out in time for the early-ish Christmas buying, the game designers were always a bit leery of the date. They actually did come remarkably close to the target date -- the middle of December is only two weeks later than the end of November.

You might want to talk to Matthew and see what he thinks of your ship cards. Many times game designers are perfectly happy to use someone else's wheel instead of inventing their own.

Jean

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

Nah, its cool. I had no idea official versions were being created as they weren't on the store page. I just remembered the ones fans made years ago for Babylon 5:ACTA and though "gee that'd be useful to have!" I certainly don't want to harm sales of accessories to a game I'm greatly looking forward to.

I'll probably still work on this for personal use (since it seems the official ones won't be out for some time), but there is a good chance I'll buy a set of the official sheets too. They'll probably look very nice, be very concise and better formatted than anything I can make! Trying to get open office to do what I want is like wrestling a bear. (or maybe a Gorn?)

Again, it wasn't my intent to step on the toes of official product. No hard feelings.

 

[Rick]

That's ok Jean - I was using the idea of Burgers ship cards as a precedent - where they only had the stats and no rules on, they may have actually increased sales of the ACTA:B5 rules!!

I'm guessing that a blank, generic one with no stats but spaces to include them would be ok?

And I really wasn't 'having a go' at the release schedule - I realise how hard the good peeps at Mongoose have worked to get the rules done to everyones satisfaction! :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

This is an unofficial official answer.

I have a strong feeling that SVC would not like those distributed. When the "real" ones come out, it would likely kill sales -- why buy something you can get for free is the response we frequently hear. It's one thing to do a sample stat ship; it's another to produce one of everything.

I know it sounds crass, but both Mongoose and ADB have to make money at this business. At ADB, we've already found out that "free" kills sales of better versions.

Do you want me to get the official official response?

I think some of the release date creep will back off since we've done the first rulebook, realized how much time it takes to get something done, and have planned that extra time into the schedule. While Marketing (that's me) wanted ACTASF out in time for the early-ish Christmas buying, the game designers were always a bit leery of the date. They actually did come remarkably close to the target date -- the middle of December is only two weeks later than the end of November.

You might want to talk to Matthew and see what he thinks of your ship cards. Many times game designers are perfectly happy to use someone else's wheel instead of inventing their own.

Jean

Thanks Jean - this may (and its only a possibility) be another example of different corporate philosophies between ADB and MGP.

As mentioned in the past there has been talk about official “ship sheets” for both ACTA: B5 and ACTA: NA, neither of which appeared – at the same time a number of fans put together this really important resources, in slightly different flavours. They were then used by and listed on the official forum and used by almost every player – including play testers.

It really depends if there are going to be official sheets or not – if not then the game is poorer by not having them and disallowing them as a unofficial resources would be in my opinion counter productive. They improve and speed up the game experience – especially when enhanced by extra options such as Burgers offering the ability to “build your fleet” on line.

If they are going to be official – then they really need to be coming on stream fairly quickly – whilst I understand there is a lot of pressure and likely to many other things to do – not having them is a bad thing…….

As others have mentioned this resource has proved a god send in introducing new players to the game in the past and hence helping the company make money to continue making the product. Like the fan made expansion packs – they do not normally include the rules for the game, special weapons etc.

 

[Sgt_G]

Da Boss,

Yes, it may be a different philosophy, but it's also a different business model. I don't work for ADB, so perhaps they're planning to move in a new direction that I'm not aware of. That said, looking back in time you'll note that ADB made its money selling paper more than metal. They sold rulebooks and cardboard counters and Ship System Diagram (SSD) books. Star Fleet Battles was designed as a board game to be played with pen & paper. The minis were something of a sideshow, but are obviously growing in popularity.

If you look at other games, the minis are the bread & butter for the company. They can afford to give the rulebook away for free if it brings players in to buy tons of minis. The last convention I was at, I stopped to watch a bit of some sort of sci-fi battle-blimp game with huge two-foot long airships. Anyone that stood there for more than about five minutes was handed a free copy of the rules, which included a price list of various minis.

I do agree that these data sheets will help, and many people feel they need to be produced. I'm sure Steve knows that (because Jean will make sure he knows), and I'm sure he'll figure out the best way to make it happen.

If I were Steve and/or Matthew (which, of course, I'm not), I would take suggestions from experienced players to design the data sheets, then post a couple examples for everyone to review and comment on before going with a final version. Next, I would consider posting a quick-set of rules with a couple basic data sheets (Fed CA, Klingon D7, etc) for free download so people can get the feel of the game. ADB has already done that with Federation Commander --- you can download a beginner's rulebook which includes a couple SSDs. Want the link? I'll look it up later and post it for you.

 

[Jean]

Da Boss, you may be right about the differences in corporate culture again. I'd really urge that anyone who creates a card of that quality check with Matthew and see if he would like you to do the design for production. That way it is a win-win situation. You get ship cards quicker and maybe get some credit (depends on Mongoose's publishing policies); Matthew doesn't have to do them.

That (from my viewpoint) would be great! I really would like to see folks with stuff in hand to make life easier.

Jean

Update: I have booted this up to Matthew and SVC. It may take time for them to discuss it and come to a decision, but nothing precludes interested parties from submitting ideas to Matthew for ship cards.

 

[Greg Smith]

On the question of free to download stuff, ADB has a whole bunch of FC ship cards on its website.

What difference does it make if players produce them?

Mongoose have never published the ACTA NA ship cards. I hope they do get the SF ones out in good time.

 

[Jean]

Greg, the difference is that we chose to post those and we created them. We know they are correct and you will notice that the new ones are B&W. That was driven by two things: first, we had customers asking for non-color cards as the color ones ate toner and ink; second, people wouldn't buy what they could get for free, even if the "pay for" was of much higher quality.

I might suggest that fan-created free ship cards may have driven the non-release of the previous official version for other games. Once those are in the wild, the time that the company spends creating them and the money the company spends printing them will (most likely) be a loss for the company. Again, it may sound crass, but the companies MUST turn a profit to keep producing more kewl games.

Jean

 

[Da Boss]

@ Jean

Hmm perhaps - but there was never, as far as I am aware any indication that MGP were going to make ship sheets for ACTA: B5 either as downloads or as products. A number of fans spent huge amounts of time and effort producing extermely useful and excelelnt sheets - which were accepted at all official tournaments I attended.....

There was talk in the early days about ACTA: Noble Armada about ship sheets - even to the point that the were pr-orders. In the instance for a number of reasons there were no fan made sheets that appeared quickly and the NA ship sheets seen to be have been quietly dropped. There are a few fan made NA ship sheets which later surfaced to fill this void....

If there are to be Official ship sheets thats all well and good (depending on relase date, compostion and price) but if not .....then its not helpful.

I also hope they can match the quality of those produced by the fans - I seriously urge you (although I realise that you time is extremely limited and over claimed :wink: ) to check out the ones prduced previously to see what was done....

 

[Greg Smith]

people wouldn't buy what they could get for free, even if the "pay for" was of much higher quality.

Maybe. Player made Babylon 5 ACTA ship cards & sheets are of extremely good quality. Take a look at this: http://www.ibisfightclub.co.uk/

I might suggest that fan-created free ship cards may have driven the non-release of the previous official version for other games.

Certainly not in the case of ACTA NA - the data cards were due for release last summer, but have not yet been published. See here:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=47492

Right now, I have far more faith in players being able to produce quality ship sheets in good time than I do in Mongoose being able to produce them.

I hope to be proved wrong.

 

[Jean]

Da Boss, I have emailed Matthew and he does say official ones are planned. I believe the release date is February.

One of the differences I see is that this game is here for the long haul. No lost licenses, no whoops, we're out of here, nothing like that. That certainly makes it more economically feasible for us to produce peripherals.

I wouldn't be suggesting that folks hold off on play aids if I didn't know that official ones are forthcoming. I came to the gaming industry via RPG playing and migrated into a strategic wargame with homegrown play aids. I do, really, understand where gamers are coming from on this. Please give both Matthew and SVC time to come to an agreement and remember this is a weekend so time in office might not overlap well.

Greg, I see this other set was planned for June 2011? That is when ACTASF started development. Probably Matthew got extremely busy? I know that I haven't really had a moment to breathe until right now -- and that is being taken with packing for my trip to Amarillo. All I can write is that for ACTASF, Matthew is planning to do a reference pack and it is currently planned for February. I'm not responsible for marketing in the other lines that Mongoose produces, so I cannot help you there.

Jean

 

[Da Boss]

Da Boss, I have emailed Matthew and he does say official ones are planned. I believe the release date is February. One of the differences I see is that this game is here for the long haul. No lost licenses, no whoops, we're out of here, nothing like that. That certainly makes it more economically feasible for us to produce peripherals. I wouldn't be suggesting that folks hold off on play aids if I didn't know that official ones are forthcoming. I came to the gaming industry via RPG playing and migrated into a strategic wargame with homegrown play aids. I do, really, understand where gamers are coming from on this. Please give both Matthew and SVC time to come to an agreement and remember this is a weekend so time in office might not overlap well.

Greg, I see this other set was planned for June 2011? That is when ACTASF started development. Probably Matthew got extremely busy? I know that I haven't really had a moment to breathe until right now -- and that is being taken with packing for my trip to Amarillo. All I can write is that for ACTASF, Matthew is planning to do a reference pack and it is currently planned for February. I'm not responsible for marketing in the other lines that Mongoose produces, so I cannot help you there.
Jean

Hey don't worry I am not in a hurry

To be fair - MGP had the B5 licence for about 10 years (IIRC) and sheets were not produced and the Noble Aramada ones fell by the wayside for perfectly understandable reasons - but they could well do so again and I feel that losing the opportunity to have good quality resources produced for free - ie at not cost to the companies themselves should not be underestimated.......

I do hope they are produced but the best respurce would be a free one on the lines of what you have apparently done already for FC - but it might be more likely to happen if the fans do it.

 

[archon96]

Jean

Is there something in the rule book we can use as a proxy sheet until the official ones release. i plan on playing shortly after my rule book arrives.

 

[Jean]

I haven't seen a rulebook. I probably won't until I get to Amarillo late in December. This was a Mongoose-proofread product so I haven't had my fingers (or eyes) on it.

Jean