Critical Hits...a new idea?

[SolarMacharious]

Where would you put the Poseidon? By the way, if TD,P Beam gets a runaway roll.. well any ship will feel like crap.

Lets face it a poseiden is crap. If it got enough fighters to make up a war point, it may be okay, but other than that, its a floating target with no guns to speak of, and that many fighters is annoying and time consuming. Its the same argument as with the cidikar and the brokados, exept the cidikar is actually able to shoot at things. Id take multiple earth raid carriers over it any day, even with the new fleet allocation rules. And besides, at war level, which other fleet gets as many superiority fighters as earth anyways.

and by the way, a triple damage beam makes a ship good, not crap, especially when it gets a runaway roll. :shock:

 

[Omnipotent]

I played a few games last weekend and we tested out the new rules.

Dilgar vs. Vree...do I need to say who won :evil: (a side note the Dilgar new special rules never came up nor did the Vree need to abduct it smashed the Dilgar without it).

Well anyhow...we tested the one of the suggested crit fix.

It was the one that when u roll a 6 get a "possible" crit, you needed to roll the dice once more. To actually get a crit after the 6 rolled the chart looked like this:

You fired on a:

Three or more priority lower ship: Auto crit (the old system no need to roll)
Two priorities lower: you need a 2 to get a crit
One priority lower: A 3 to get a crit
Same priority: A 4 to get a crit (50/50)
One priority higher: A 5 to get a crit
Two or more priority levels higher: Another 6 is needed

We found this system to be VERY GOOD...it did save our bigger ships (Xonn and Mankhat) from a few crits from smaller ships, and we got like 5-10 crits per game, we played four games.

Master of Destruction still gave triple damage/double damage even if the crit did not ultimately succeed, this was charactaristic and did not change it´s intent.

I recommend to try it out...Don´t think it terms of "Why? The smaller ship has the same weapon system as that bigger one", just try it out it really made it more fun to actually USE those bigger ships in more competative games, and not only in games you know you are going to lose.

 

[Foxmeister]

I think you would still need something for Precise. I would suggest a re-roll on failed attempts to convert the crit.

Regards,

Dave

 

[stepan.razin]

Where would you put the Poseidon? By the way, if TD,P Beam gets a runaway roll.. well any ship will feel like crap.

Lets face it a poseiden is crap. If it got enough fighters to make up a war point, it may be okay, but other than that, its a floating target with no guns to speak of, and that many fighters is annoying and time consuming. Its the same argument as with the cidikar and the brokados, exept the cidikar is actually able to shoot at things. Id take multiple earth raid carriers over it any day, even with the new fleet allocation rules. And besides, at war level, which other fleet gets as many superiority fighters as earth anyways.

and by the way, a triple damage beam makes a ship good, not crap, especially when it gets a runaway roll. :shock:

By itself the Poseidon is not that impressive.. in a large fleet it is a complete pain the the ass (and it is only worth it in a large battle). No one will shoot at it, not until all the Apollos are gone, followed by the Marathons. And 24 Firebolts are a must.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Its also an impressive looking model sitting in the middle of your fleet! One of the more impressive EA ships, IMO! Really wish Earth had its own Armageddon ship to be impressive

 

[stepan.razin]

Its also an impressive looking model sitting in the middle of your fleet! One of the more impressive EA ships, IMO! Really wish Earth had its own Armageddon ship to be impressive

We do, I just wish that the ISA would stop stealing earth technology

 

[tschuma]

Dave

I don;t think that you need to add anything on the 2nd roll for precise. They already get a incresed chance of a Critical on the Damage rolls, so they will have a better chance for the critcal in the second roll.

We will try this out tonight.

tschuma

 

[Fenrisnorth]

Idea, I think we could resolve the crit issue if you had to drop a ship to half its starting hull before you could do a critical. This would represent having to batter through the target's armor to get to the systems inside. Either that or do a percentage of its total hull in one shot, like 5 or 10% at once. To do a crit, though to give smaller ships a chance you could count squadrons as "one shot"

What do you think of that?

 

[Foxmeister]

I don;t think that you need to add anything on the 2nd roll for precise. They already get a incresed chance of a Critical on the Damage rolls, so they will have a better chance for the critcal in the second roll.

Unfortunately, it does have a significant effect on Precise. Currently, a hit from a Precise weapon has twice the chance of getting a critical over a hit from a "regular" weapon. Using this system, without given some sort of benefit for Precise on the second roll, you are reducing this percentage and thus devaluing Precise.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

If the game had a force organizational chart, which forced you to spend X points at the set priority level (or above) then that would both deal with the swarm issue, and since everyone has to take at least some large ships, or at least level appropriate ships, then it'd be more about capitol ships fighting eachother, and less about whoever has the most hulls wins, based on crit volume, initiative sinks, and the basic concept that two Raid ships will kill a Battle ship 90% of the time.

 

[Omnipotent]

If the game had a force organizational chart, which forced you to spend X points at the set priority level (or above) then that would both deal with the swarm issue, and since everyone has to take at least some large ships, or at least level appropriate ships, then it'd be more about capitol ships fighting eachother, and less about whoever has the most hulls wins, based on crit volume, initiative sinks, and the basic concept that two Raid ships will kill a Battle ship 90% of the time.

Been suggested a few times. And might work...What we also found good was if u use like ONE point armageddon, instead of let´s say 4 point battle. This does just that. The new "buy down" chart gets thumps up from me!

 

[greenboy]

If the game had a force organizational chart, which forced you to spend X points at the set priority level (or above) then that would both deal with the swarm issue, and since everyone has to take at least some large ships, or at least level appropriate ships, then it'd be more about capitol ships fighting eachother, and less about whoever has the most hulls wins, based on crit volume, initiative sinks, and the basic concept that two Raid ships will kill a Battle ship 90% of the time.

Been suggested a few times. And might work...What we also found good was if u use like ONE point armageddon, instead of let´s say 4 point battle. This does just that. The new "buy down" chart gets thumps up from me!

I liked the way that ships were selected for battle fleet gothic whwere large ships were restricted based on the number of smaller ships.

if a system like this was employed then a ship could be made better than two ships a leverl below it.

i would also like the crit level to be based on the number of crits scored rather than a dice roll thias would make large ships more lightly to cause big crits be cause they have more guns

 

[Enalut]

I like the idea of confirming a crit, but think basing it on the relative size of the ships is the problem:

Confirmation roll required
Patrol: 1 (Auto)
Skirmish: 2
Raid: 3
Battle: 4
War: 5
Armegeddon/Ancient: 6

I also like the idea of ever potential crit scoring an extra point of damage, but would apply that extra point whether or not the crit was confirmed (so that even a confirmed 1,1 crit did an extra point of damage, and a 6,6 crit did 1+4d6 damage)

 

[l33tpenguin]

This is the idea behind the redundency trait. just like hull, it is a score that every ship gets. It would work well to helping balance ships and is more flexable than a across the board PL value. The average could be PL based, the average Raid ship could have a 2 redundancy or the average Armageddon could have a 5, for example. But maybe the Ka'Bin'Tak has a 6 while the Adira has a 4. A score of 1 is worthless, since you have to match or beat the score to confirm.

 

[katadder]

and again this comes up. there is no reason why a pulse cannon should not have as much chance of critting a ship no matter its size.
the ability to survive this crit is from damage points and here bigger ships have more damage.

to limit crits depending on size every ship would have to have the same damage and every weapon would have to have the same output as then you can say a weapon from a warship is heavier than a patrol ship and the warship has more chance of surviving.
currently this is done via number of AD and damage score. bigger ships have more AD therefore more crit chances and more damage therefore more survivable.
anything that requires a crit to be confirmed on differing numbers depending on ship size would need a complete rebalance of weapons and damage score.

 

[Target]

The is no reason just cause it's a medium pulse cannon to be the exact same model on smaller ship. One might be a Browning Med Pulse which has same range & targeting ability as a SKB Med Pulse just one is bigger so fits on bigger ships easier with a slight upgrade in penetrating power but not enough to warrant a trait change.
I see where you are coming from but if it works and/or people are happy why worry about it. It's wouldn't be the only rule that doesn't make sense but works in gameplay.

 

[mrambassador1]

I still am more interested in the effects of the new FAP. I don't remember critting being such a big problem before you got 8 patrol ships for every battle. The one crit change I might be interested in seeing is getting rid of the no damage control crit, that you can't get rid of. With less small ships and all hands to deck you should be able to mitigate the worst crits and fight on fairly well anyway.

 

[CZuschlag]

and again this comes up. there is no reason why a pulse cannon should not have as much chance of critting a ship no matter its size.
the ability to survive this crit is from damage points and here bigger ships have more damage.

to limit crits depending on size every ship would have to have the same damage and every weapon would have to have the same output as then you can say a weapon from a warship is heavier than a patrol ship and the warship has more chance of surviving.
currently this is done via number of AD and damage score. bigger ships have more AD therefore more crit chances and more damage therefore more survivable.
anything that requires a crit to be confirmed on differing numbers depending on ship size would need a complete rebalance of weapons and damage score.

We don't agree on all that much, so, when katadder and I are forced to agree perfectly on something --- it's not by choice that I have to admit it </joke>!

If you want to confirm critical effects, fine, go ahead --- but ONLY based on the size of the ship, not the size of the firer or the ratio of the firer to the ship. And, even then, you're talking about huge rebalances.

You could do it now, because we're also cracking open the FAP Breakdown chart. That's the only time you'll ever get a shot at it. But, as for now, this is a MONUMENTAL (and probably worthy) change that is probably hopelessly out of scope for this release.

 

[CratZ]

This is the idea behind the redundency trait. just like hull, it is a score that every ship gets. It would work well to helping balance ships and is more flexable than a across the board PL value. The average could be PL based, the average Raid ship could have a 2 redundancy or the average Armageddon could have a 5, for example. But maybe the Ka'Bin'Tak has a 6 while the Adira has a 4. A score of 1 is worthless, since you have to match or beat the score to confirm.

I like this idea.

 

[Foxmeister]

the ability to survive this crit is from damage points and here bigger ships have more damage.

Great, except that it doesn't work.

For the most part, it isn't the damage caused by the critical that's the problem - it's the critical effects and they disproportionately affect the larger ships. You've only got to get a vital systems hit and/or no SAs and your 1 Armageddon point Ka'Bin'Tak can be sitting with 100+ damage left, but be less effective that a Raid level ship.

Surviving alone is not enough - you need to be combat effective and that is the problem.

Regards,

Dave