Creating Grimoires

[Chronos]

The rulebook says the following about sorcery grimoires:

"Sorcerers record their spells in grimoires. A grimoire can hold just one spell or many. Some grimoires are disparate collections with no single theme whereas others are deliberate collections of spells of a particular nature, gathered together to reflect a particular mindset or requirement."

Is it possible for sorcerers to create new spells and grimoires of their own devising? How would they go about doing this? Would it take research? Access to a library or other grimoires? Teachers? It's said in the book that sorcerous cults create their own grimoires, but nothing of individuals doing so. It would seem reasonable that an accomplished sorcerer would have some facility with doing this.

In a similar vein, is it possible for a sorcerer to create a new grimoire using spells from two or more other grimoires they all ready possess? If they can, at what skill would the new grimoire be known - the base INT x 2, or would it be the lowest the sorcery(grimoire) skills?

 

[PhilHibbs]

...is it possible for a sorcerer to create a new grimoire using spells from two or more other grimoires they all ready possess? If they can, at what skill would the new grimoire be known - the base INT x 2, or would it be the lowest the sorcery(grimoire) skills?

I would say no, or at least, not always, and not without some kind of rationale.

The spells in a Grimoire aren't just chosen (they can be chosen out-of-game, but not within the game). They are the conclusion that anyone studying the text of the Grimoire comes to. So, a sorcerer might study two or three Grimoires and spot information in the three of them that could be combined and cross-referenced, and thus come up with a new Grimoire that contains some of the same spells as the original ones, and maybe one or two new ones. Or, they may be able to take some information from one Grimoire and add it to another so that that derived Grimoire has a new spell. For example, from a Grimoire containing various Shapechange spells, and another containing various Dominate spells, the sorcerer may be able to use information from the Shapechange grimoire to add a new Dominate variant, or vice versa. Maybe they could take some of the Shapechange and some of the Dominate spells and come up with a Grimoire that has Shapechange and Dominate spells for a particular species, but I don't think it's a simple case of pick-and-mix spells. In my opinion, there has to be a link between them.

 

[Tamerlin]

Is it possible for sorcerers to create new spells and grimoires of their own devising?

I always think that it MUST be possible, or else where did those spells and/or Grimoires come from in the first place?

Finding out how to create a Grimoire might be the subject of an entire mini-campaign, or more if the world is one where the knowledge of creating Grimoires is lost to the mists of time, or a closely held secret shared by only a few...

That said, I'm still waiting for my copy of RuneQuest II to arrive, so I'm just chiming in out of curiosity more than anything else

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Is it possible for sorcerers to create new spells and grimoires of their own devising? How would they go about doing this? Would it take research? Access to a library or other grimoires? Teachers? It's said in the book that sorcerous cults create their own grimoires, but nothing of individuals doing so. It would seem reasonable that an accomplished sorcerer would have some facility with doing this.

That depends on the GM and the setting.

In a Conan game for example, grimoires studied by dark cults are ancient knowledge passed down through generations, and the ability to create new spells has been lost since the sinking of Atlantis. The same goes for Tekumel temples or Dying Earth magicians.

In Glorantha, it is eminently possible for a God Learner sect to found their own grimoire, but may require several highly dangerous heroquests to wrest such arcane knowledge from various heroplane entities. In the process probably attaining sainthood.

For a generic fantasy campaign, a game ported over from D&D for example, high level wizards should easily be able to found their own grimoires, by patching together knowledge gained during their lives. Not that it would be much use to them, but their future apprentices or devout followers may well be grateful...

Simply, its up to you. Just be aware of the potential power creep. :wink:

 

[languagegeek]

For a generic fantasy campaign, a game ported over from D&D for example, high level wizards should easily be able to found their own grimoires, by patching together knowledge gained during their lives. Not that it would be much use to them, but their future apprentices or devout followers may well be grateful...

Simply, its up to you. Just be aware of the potential power creep. :wink:

It might be useful for a powerful wizard to make their own grimoire. Let's say the wizard knows an additional three grimoires at the 35-45% range. The wizard could take from those grimoires their favourite 6 or 7 spells (or all of them for that matter) and combine them into one grimoire into which they sink 85%+. This makes me thing there would have to be stringent limitations of sorcerers whipping up their own grimoires.

 

[Chronos]

That depends on the GM and the setting.

I'm assuming your run-of-the-mill MRQ2 Glorantha-based game. Sorry, I should have been more specific in my query.

The wizard could take from those grimoires their favourite 6 or 7 spells (or all of them for that matter) and combine them into one grimoire into which they sink 85%+.

This is sort of the result I had in mind. My thinking is that a sorcerer who's been practicing that art for long enough would be able to assemble their own grimoires. I believe it's reasonable to expect that someone who has practiced sorcery for a time ought to have the ability to successfully cast their spells most of the time, if they put the time and effort into mastering it.

Just be aware of the potential power creep. :wink:

This makes me thing there would have to be stringent limitations of sorcerers whipping up their own grimoires.

And yes, it should be difficult to do and quite probably require extraordinary effort to accomplish. That is why I suggested libraries, research, other grimoires and teachers. Maybe even a quest like Pete suggested. Perhaps some monetary cost for materials and improvement rolls or Hero Points burned to move spells around. Not to mention the difficulty and rarity of coming across other grimoires in the first place.

What it comes down to is this: any sufficiently motivated sorcerer would certainly try to find the best and most efficient way to practice their craft. What sorcerer wouldn't look at the 5 grimoires they possess and say "Hey, you know what? Why am I splitting my time and energy between trying to master these 5 separate books, some of which have spells I don't use, when I can make one really versatile grimoire and then work on getting really good at it?"

People don't eschew semi and fully automatic guns when they need to shoot someone because they have a particular fondness for single action revolvers, muskets and crossbows. Similarly, if you have to drive somewhere, are you going to take your pick of 5 Model T Fords, or are you going to drive the new Ferrari if you can figure out how to get one? 8)

 

[Simulacrum]

[In a non-Gloranthan non-heroquesting setting] The rationale of separate grimoire skills suggests that each grimoire is written in different style, idiom and underlying philosophy. Hence pulling out spells into a new grimore which is a synthesis of the old ones requires a level of understanding in each that allows the sorcerer to reinterpret as well as repackage the content.

With that in mind, I would suggest that a sorcerer would have to have a very high skill in each of the grimoires (75%+) from which he is selecting material, and will have to start from base in the new one as he gets to grips with what he has created (though I am sure there are some modifiers that could be applied to create his base if you were feeling geneous). This would deter all but the most scholarly and determined (with an agenda) from creating a grimoire and avoid simple grimoire skill aggrandizement. You might also limit the number of spells he can reasnably compile into a coherent form - maybe use his INT or his critical Manipulation skill. and of course there is time. A work of this sort might be equivalent to writing a PhD thesis - some 3 years, of which at least half must be spent in the pub

What this solution lacks under RAW is a skill to test to create the grimoire.

 

[soltakss]

It should depend on the type of Grimoire.

Grimoires that are Holy Books would contain secrets encoded in the book that sorcerers can use to cast spells. Normally, you won't be able to change these as the information has already been encoded by religious leaders. However, it might be possible to gain new insights and gain a new encoding that can be used to cast a new spell. Such work are the domain of HeroQuests, Spiritual Meditation and Heresies.

Grimoires that belong to organisations could be added to by individual sorcerers as they gain new spells, but the spells would then be available to those members of the organisation that have access to that Grimoire.

Personal Grimoires are the equivalent of Spellbooks and contain those spells that the Sorcerer has gained knowledge of through his own magical/spiritual journey. A sorcerer could put new spells into this kind of Grimoire without any problems.

I don't think that it particularly matters which spells are already in the Grimoire. Some sorcerers would put necromantic spells together and create a Book of the Dead, but that would be purely for convenience, unless the secrets came from a single deity who has taught the sorcerers those spells.

 

[Chronos]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Good stuff here. I especially liked the idea of needing very high skill levels in any grimoires to be used in the combination. It makes the sorcerer have to work at it before they know the spells well enough to start moving them around.

What this solution lacks under RAW is a skill to test to create the grimoire.

True, this is where I was thinking of having to use improvement rolls or Hero points to do it. Loz, Pete - what do you think should be done for this?

 

[PhilHibbs]

I don't think that creating a custom grimoire is a route to personal magical power, but it is more likely a route to fame and possibly immortality (found your own sect with priests devoted to your philosophy, and become a Saint). Most Gloranthan grimoires came about this way, but with The Abiding Book as the source material rather than grimoires)

 

[Mongoose Pete]

True, this is where I was thinking of having to use improvement rolls or Hero points to do it. Loz, Pete - what do you think should be done for this?

I tend to prefer using Improvement Rolls for such things. As for how many, I cannot really offer you any guidelines save for make it expensive. Depending on the setting (and existence of the other magical paths) uber-comprehensive grimoires tend to unbalance a game. Every cult should have some weaknesses...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I don't think that creating a custom grimoire is a route to personal magical power, but it is more likely a route to fame and possibly immortality (found your own sect with priests devoted to your philosophy, and become a Saint). Most Gloranthan grimoires came about this way, but with The Abiding Book as the source material rather than grimoires)

This is certainly the suggestion from the Heroquest 1 rulebook.

A Gloranthan grimoire is not "just" a book with spells written in it. The physical grimoire is a talisman that is linked to a "node" on the Essence planes, and that "grimoire node" is linked to the various "spell nodes" that the grimoire contains. A Wizard or Sorceror* who learns a new grimoire must perform a Heroquest to link the physical copy of the book to the source of power. Obviously if he is doing this under the auspices of a School/Church/Order he will benefit from their support and knowledge of the appropriate rituals. If he is attempting to learn a Grimoire he has acquired from elsewhere, he will find things harder (particularly if he is opposed by members of his own organisation for attempting to learn from "heretical" or banned books, or by the original owners of the grimoire, keen to protect their own secrets).

A wizard or Sorceror seeking to create a new Grimoire must forge the links between spells and create the Grimoire node to bind them all together. Again this will be much easier if they have the support of a community - these followers will become the new school or order following the teachings of the Grimoire's founder.

That said, I suspect it is more common for new Grimoires to be created in the Second Age than in the third. Scholars in the MSE are busy exploring the Heroplane and beyond, and the overall outlook is expansionist rather than the conservatism of the third age (bought about by the fate of the God Learners)