Corrected costs per Middle passenger

F33D

Mongoose
After reviewing the probable tech available at TL 11+ I came up with realistic cost per mid passenger.

MRB has a "good meal" at a TAS establishment at Cr20. So, Cr25 for a ship meal (special for ships like high end airline meals). 21 meals in jump plus 1 at each end to/from jump point.

23 meals @Cr575 *
Toiletries/sundries Cr100
Cleaning supplies Cr10

TOTAL: Cr685

*passengers pay for any food/drinks not served at meals so, is not a "cost" for ship.
 
I have a better idea. Charge them Cr.3000 as in Core so that I can buy fuel, feed the crew, pay for mortgage, pay for maintenance, pay crew salaries, pay taxes and docking fees and make a profit.
 
Easterner said:
I have a better idea. Charge them Cr.3000 as in Core ...

You're confusing cost with price. Common mistake for people who aren't familiar with running a business.
 
F33D said:
Easterner said:
I have a better idea. Charge them Cr.3000 as in Core ...

You're confusing cost with price. Common mistake for people who aren't familiar with running a business.
Running a ship is far from the only business in the universe. For a businessman who is traveling, cost may be the price charged for passage, taxi rides, hotel rooms and other costs for travel to do business.

I'm not sure what the point is in the original post. Are you saying this amount is in addition to the ships cost and maintenance listed on page 137 of the CRB?
 
No, these are the basic costs of the perishables required for each middle passenger. They would be incorporated into the life support costs for the stateroom.

If a middle passenger's Cr 3000 ticket were broken down and itemised, those items listed in the original post would be included in the list.

Where would the Steward skill and shipboard luxuries figure in? Also, stateroom life support costs?
 
Where would the Steward skill and shipboard luxuries figure in? Also, stateroom life support costs?

Those are fixed costs, the above (1st post) being variable costs; price is (hopefully) costs plus margin.
 
alex_greene said:
Where would the Steward skill and shipboard luxuries figure in? Also, stateroom life support costs?


Steward is separate unless, you "consume" said Steward every trip :).

There are no other "life support costs". Unless one is paying dearly for a very small amount of water and a few liters of O2 when you make planet fall. The Cr2000/stateroom listed in the CRB could only be (above the costs I listed above) 3I tax. There is NOTHING else of consequence to spend on.

I forgot to put in my OP that this was for games not playing in the 3I where the taxes are levied against each stateroom on a ship. Whether occupied or not.
 
F33D said:
I forgot to put in my OP that this was for games not playing in the 3I where the taxes are levied against each stateroom on a ship. Whether occupied or not.
Are you sure that's all you forgot because I still don't get it.

If I'm reading between the lines right, is it just a "FYI, this is my personal house rule, I don't charge $2000cr/mo for unoccupied staterooms, instead, I replace the RAW with the following as my life support and supplies costs for each stateroom."?

I still don't know if there is a question or point you are trying to make?
 
F33D said:
CosmicGamer said:
I still don't know if there is a question or point you are trying to make?

It is a correction of an obvious error in the rules.
What exactly do you think the error is?

I can certainly understand wanting to add clarity. I also understand that the rules need to be generic and can't completely cover what life support systems would be like for all races at all tech levels.

Personally, I try to use my imagination to come up with ways to make the RAW make sense, at least as a generic starting point. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes I might do things a bit differently then one day after numerous discussions and much pondering a light bulb goes off and I think, hmm now why didn't I think of that before. If you want, I can yet again give some examples so that the rule is more palatable, if you are so inclined.

By the way, I was re reading your post and caught something. The core rules are supposed to be setting independent so the "tax", as you call it, would not be a 3I tax.
 
CosmicGamer said:
What exactly do you think the error is?

That's pretty well covered in the above.

CosmicGamer said:
By the way, I was re reading your post and caught something. The core rules are supposed to be setting independent so the "tax", as you call it, would not be a 3I tax.

:lol:

From the "core rules" char gen:

Social Standing (Soc): "A character’s place in society. Characters with
a high Social Standing can claim a noble title in the Imperium and
will find life much easier thanks to their reputation and contacts."
 
F33D said:
You're confusing cost with price. Common mistake for people who aren't familiar with running a business.
Yeah, coming from undergraduate and graduate classes in Marketing, Busness Mgmt, Accounting, Production Ops and Mgmt, et al let me toss

COST = What you pay for supplies to provide the product and/or service
PRICE = What you charge for the product and/or service (and what your supplier charges you thus your COST)

PRICE minus COST = Profit
(PROFIT divided-by PRICE ) times 100% = Profit Margin

Lets be much more specific on the COSTS of the MB.
  • Food and sundries (variable depending on economy of where you are restocking)
  • Crew salaries/food/sundries/benefits (Not just the Stewart) to support that berth (a fixed cost whether berth is filled or not)
  • Life support (fairly fixed)
  • Fuel for FTL and Maneuver drive (variable cost)
  • Regular Maintenance (Fixed cost)
  • Loan principle and interest (Fixed cost)

 
F33D said:
CosmicGamer said:
What exactly do you think the error is?

That's pretty well covered in the above.
Then could you provide a post # or link, because I must have missed it.
F33D said:
From the "core rules" char gen:
Why did you put core rules in quotes?
F33D said:
Social Standing (Soc): "A character’s place in society. Characters with
a high Social Standing can claim a noble title in the Imperium and
will find life much easier thanks to their reputation and contacts."
I certainly didn't say that there were no references to the 3I. "The core rules are supposed to be setting independent" My interpretation of the 3rd paragraph of the book is that unless a rule specifically says otherwise, like the SOC one you posted, it is a generic rule.

And I think you kinda missed the point of that sentence. I'm willing to clarify. I wasn't saying that the rule does not apply to the 3I
F33D said:
The Cr2000/stateroom listed in the CRB could only be (above the costs I listed above) 3I tax.
I'm saying it is not only a 3I rule.
 
I had found some information online related to cost of living in Traveller. These are just generic, and not adjusted for inflation, deflation, increased/decreased demand. And it's broken down by SOC level (a SOC 12 with credits won't be staying at the galactic equivalent to Red Airlock Inn.

Now this doesn't include any of the ship costs related to providing passage. Just living costs onplanet. But it gives you a good idea of what it costs for the basics. Booze, women and pharmaceuticals (w/Rock & Roll).
 

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CosmicGamer said:
And I think you kinda missed the point of that sentence. I'm willing to clarify. I wasn't saying that the rule does not apply to the 3I
F33D said:
The Cr2000/stateroom listed in the CRB could only be (above the costs I listed above) 3I tax.
I'm saying it is not only a 3I rule.

Okay, so outside the 3I, pls itemize what the Cr2000 (3I tax) pays for considering an empty stateroom.

I'll wait...
 
F33D said:
Okay, so outside the 3I, pls itemize what the Cr2000 (3I tax) pays for considering an empty stateroom.
I'll wait...
I think you know what the rules say, or more likely what the rules don't detail so I assume you are now taking me up on
CosmicGamer said:
If you want, I can yet again give some examples so that the rule is more palatable, if you are so inclined.
DISCLAIMER: The following is just me using my imagination to come up with some plausible reasons to explain why life support costs $2000/mo even when a stateroom is not occupied. In no way am I saying this is what the rules intended nor am I suggesting that anyone should use any of my ideas in their games; I don't. The type of games I play are not detailed ship operations simulations so they usually don't even include any accounting of revenue and expenses because nobody thinks it's fun to do.

So, I won't be giving an itemized list or giving exact costs but perhaps I can spur your imagination and you can come up with details, if you so desire, yourself.

Ship maintenance is broken down to a monthly cost even though some may be yearly, quarterly, semi annually... so why not the same for life support. Try not to get caught up in the per trip or passenger aspect of life support. Think of it more as the total average annual costs divided into a monthly amount for ease of accounting. Many of us gamers want to role play and not do accounting.

Now on to some thoughts that might make the rule more palatable.
- Here is a quote from an RV site "infrequent use can cause bacteria buildup resulting in bad tasting or smelling water or even a bug that may make you ill." The site goes on to discuss dumping the tank, flushing the lines, chemicals, and so on. Is it possible that not having passengers and having to treat unused water could make costs go up?
- Replace the water filter every...month? Even if it is once a year, the cost is differed across 12 months. We had less passengers this month so those filters will last an extra 6 days - do you really want to keep track of this?
- Sometimes ships stop in questionable places. Do you always trust the water you are taking on or do you always treat it? While you could figure this out every stop and add or subtract costs, I'd prefer to use an approximate cost.
- Not all supplies are non perishable. Were not dealing with passenger liners that have advanced booking and know how many passengers there will be. The ship would need to order supplies hoping that they fill the staterooms.
- Some supplies have a shelf life once opened. Not all supplies are purchased in per person per use sizes. If you might need X number of something over a month a bulk package might be bought and once opened it might have a limited shelf life.
- I've used dishwashers that use a tablet and it doesn't matter if the washer is full or not, it heats up the same amount of hot water, uses the same amount of electricity, and uses the same amount of detergent. The concept is that some things may need to be cleaned or replaced and have a cost for use that doesn't vary much based on an exact count of used staterooms.
- Maybe staterooms are not individually maintained. The size of the central air/heat/water and other systems is dependent on max occupancy and components in these systems need proper replacement no matter how many people are occupying the staterooms.
- When I was in the military, inspections of systems were done on an interval. It didn't matter if the system was used between intervals or not. Testing systems may require certain supplies. You'd get in big trouble if systems were not properly inspected and tested.

While it is realistic that certain costs would go down if you are carrying less passengers, it is also realistic that some costs would still be the same or might even go up. Using a general rule as an average for the total annual life support costs is ok with me because I don't need every bar of soap, bandage, air freshener and so on to be accounted for.
 
F33D said:
Okay, so outside the 3I, pls itemize what the Cr2000 (3I tax) pays for considering an empty stateroom.

I'll wait...

To F33's shock I'm a long time business owner. Unlike him I'm not interested in saving 600 bucks on an empty room I want a Cr3000 body in it. Economics are dynamic not static.

If you wish to account for Cr600 in petty cash you have to account for the rest.

Cr1000 loss from bad fruit picked up on Arglebargle IX.

Jack Pirate got into shootout with crew. A zap of gauss needles shredded him. Room needs cleaning. Holes need patching, bed clothes and mattress need replacing and looks like toilet blasted too.

Burst pipe in room 3. Major repairs.

Jane tourist swiped your pillows.

Ships cat used chair in commons for scratching post.

Lightfinger Bob left with the ships silverware.

Sal Minella claims food poisoning. Lawyer needed.

This is the stuff business owners put up with everyday. Needless to say I could add dozens more pocket emptying events.That's why no one is interested in your bean counting. It is invalid without a ton of unnecessary dicerolling charts and tables.
 
Easterner said:
To F33's shock I'm a long time business owner. Unlike him I'm not interested in saving 600 bucks on an empty room I want a Cr3000 body in it.

Umm, it's Cr2000 overcharge/tax for an empty stateroom. And, ~Cr1,400 savings for an occupied stateroom. Hope you are better at math in your business... ;)
 
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