Congratulations on Traveller!
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trancejeremy
Mongoose
Yeah, but based on their track record (Conan and Runequest for instance), not too likely to be error free
Nothing is perfect. I heard good things baout the old traveller and am glad that my favourite game company has picked it up. I suppose I am much younger than most of you guys who played the first traveller, but I think it is cool that a new generation will be exposed to this time honoured classic.
pasuuli said:
Actually, Pasuuli, expect most of the grogs to pan it unless it is CT with a task system, and possibly MT basic CharGen....
Really, most of the rabid Traveller fan base want CT+ (or MT with a CT style design system). The smaller, but even more vocal, batch want detailed design systems ala TNE: the gearheads.
A third group don't care, since they are not actually using the rules, just the setting (GURPS Traveller, various adaptations to CORE, EABA, HeroSystem, AD&D, BRP, WOD).
pasuuli said:
There are two things that would instantly preclude my purchase...
- A Bad task system. Most especially the Xd6 vs Stat+Skill that MWM has been touting for T4 and again for T5.
- 1 skill per year Character Generation.
I've done both before: T4. Neither I nor my player base found T4 worth the while. I couldn't find experienced Traveller players willing to playtest T5 due to the multi-die task system.
Quite simply put, most Traveller Grogs will see MoTrav (aka RTT) as FURTHER DIVIDING the player base.
Most of the grogs already dislike some elements of T5. Given that less than 25 pages of released material has generated about 40K words of feedback, the vast majority being negative (and about 30K words of that openly hostile to MWM)... and the task system was more than half of the overall, and about 2/3 of the open hostility.
Now, assuming that Mongoose actually does what they said they were going to do: update CT with a Task System and revised Combat System, and avoids the horrendous t4/t5 multi-die task system, That will sell to most of the grogs. It will become the defacto standard.
(T20 came awful close to doing that, but due to the d20 elements.... Hunter's CT+ was killed by MWM because it would have essentially deleted what little hope MWM had for a real market for T5... CT+ was T20 stripped of d20, with CT character gen put back.)
If they instead subset from MWM's T5, it's already struck out with a large chunk of grogs, since it's no longer compatible with CT nor MT characters.
We are talking a major incompatibility; CT skills had no upper limit, but I've seen very few with more than level 5. In MegaTraveller, the system caps skill use by imposing a limit of +8 to task rolls between stat and skill (and used stat/5 for a 0-3 range)
pasuuli said:
Better would mean different. If this difference wasnt the same as the CT players houserules, it is likely to be panned.
This is a very unfortunate habit depressingly common to the CT player that still posts on Fora. I missed CT, started with MT but only became a fan with TNE. I would love honest opinions and lessons of experience from older players. However the sheer weight of OTT oposition to any changes means I can rarely take anything at face value.
Mongoose are better of listening to people they trust and then just playtesting and doing the best in their own opinions. Make the game they will enjoy.
T4 tried to stick to roots and failed as it was a bad system. Many Grogs just stuck to CT.
Now, there is nothing wrong with sticking to CT if thats what people like. But changing a game to the advice of players who may well ignore your product anyway is madness. Just make a good game with a good system and dont worry about "purity" of the system.
One of the things I find disturbing in recent posts on this and other boards is that people keep pointing to the Runequest SRD as an example of what will be in the Traveller SRD. The Runequest SRD has the following: Character Creation, Skills, Combat, Magic, Adventuring, Equipment, Character Improvement, Cults, Temples, Creatures/Monsters, some Environmental stuff, and some Cosmology stuff.
I am willing to chalk it up to a lack of experience with Traveller, but I certainly hope that there's a bit more than above, or at least a bit different. To be explicit, I would like: Character Creation, Character Improvement, Skills, Combat, Psionics, Equipment, Environments, Creatures/Encounters, World Generation, Starship Creation, Trade & Commerce.
These are the basic subjects covered in what I consider the core rules of each version of Traveller. Check it out: CT Books 1-3, as well as the core rulebooks for MT, TNE, T4, GT and T20 all address these basic subjects. Thus, I have an expectation that these would be covered in the new rules, and I'm sure that they will. However, I don't know what will make it from the new rules into the Traveller SRD.
I understand that Mytholder wants much the same list as above, but ultimately, he has to take direction from others, and that, by necessity, means that he may not get to add what he wants. He has already mentioned that the Starship Creation rules might, repeat, MIGHT be in a secondary book, but if they are, he has stated that the rules will be made available under the OGL when it happens.
One can hope that at least general info on the Official Traveller Universe (OTU), even just library data, would be available in the SRD as well, or at least the opportunity to write in the OTU would be available through the Traveller Logo License (TLL). However, I haven't heard any word at all on that particular subject, save that MWM has told Spica Publishing that their project could be one of the first to be released under the OGL and TLL. That may imply OTU access through either the OGL/SRD or the TLL, but then again, the OTU content might be covered by the pre-existing license instead. I don't know for a fact, and I'm not sure anyone else does either, at this time.
Anyway, that's currently where I'm at. I'm not worried about the playtesting of the product. The closer it sticks to its announced goal of deriving from CT, the less testing that needs to be done, because the world has been testing it since 1977. The further one gets away from CT, the more testing has to be done. Then again, if the material is OGL, we can always publish our own fixes if we find something we don't like (such as the number of skills earned per term). With that in mind, the rules themselves don't bother me. I'm worried about what rules will be left out that we can't play with, as well as whether or not we get to add to the OTU through these licenses.
With Regards,
Flynn
I am willing to chalk it up to a lack of experience with Traveller, but I certainly hope that there's a bit more than above, or at least a bit different. To be explicit, I would like: Character Creation, Character Improvement, Skills, Combat, Psionics, Equipment, Environments, Creatures/Encounters, World Generation, Starship Creation, Trade & Commerce.
These are the basic subjects covered in what I consider the core rules of each version of Traveller. Check it out: CT Books 1-3, as well as the core rulebooks for MT, TNE, T4, GT and T20 all address these basic subjects. Thus, I have an expectation that these would be covered in the new rules, and I'm sure that they will. However, I don't know what will make it from the new rules into the Traveller SRD.
I understand that Mytholder wants much the same list as above, but ultimately, he has to take direction from others, and that, by necessity, means that he may not get to add what he wants. He has already mentioned that the Starship Creation rules might, repeat, MIGHT be in a secondary book, but if they are, he has stated that the rules will be made available under the OGL when it happens.
One can hope that at least general info on the Official Traveller Universe (OTU), even just library data, would be available in the SRD as well, or at least the opportunity to write in the OTU would be available through the Traveller Logo License (TLL). However, I haven't heard any word at all on that particular subject, save that MWM has told Spica Publishing that their project could be one of the first to be released under the OGL and TLL. That may imply OTU access through either the OGL/SRD or the TLL, but then again, the OTU content might be covered by the pre-existing license instead. I don't know for a fact, and I'm not sure anyone else does either, at this time.
Anyway, that's currently where I'm at. I'm not worried about the playtesting of the product. The closer it sticks to its announced goal of deriving from CT, the less testing that needs to be done, because the world has been testing it since 1977. The further one gets away from CT, the more testing has to be done. Then again, if the material is OGL, we can always publish our own fixes if we find something we don't like (such as the number of skills earned per term). With that in mind, the rules themselves don't bother me. I'm worried about what rules will be left out that we can't play with, as well as whether or not we get to add to the OTU through these licenses.
With Regards,
Flynn
Tathlum said:
And in support of that point, the fact that the system is going to be OGL allows people to publish their own version if they don't like what Mongoose provides, so they really don't have much to stand on. I just hope the nay-sayers realize the power that the OGL can give them in this, and then just do what they can to support the work that Mongoose is creating for us. By the time it's done, who knows? They might like the end result after all. And if not, they now have freedom to make changes and even publish their own "official" version for their own use (and possible resale to others of a like mind.)
It's sad when people don't give a project like this a chance, without even seeing what could come of it first. But then again, there's always people like that. Reminds me somewhat of the 4th Edition D&D rumors and responses I read about on other boards. In the end, most will buy it anyway, despite what they say in the months before release, because that's what the people in general will be playing.
In regards to Mongoose Traveller, I imagine this version will be what I'll be using in my future Traveller games, because that's what most of the gamers new to Traveller will be playing.
If not, I'll be using Traveller T20, simply because I know I can get gamers for that system, and it's hard to run a game without gamers.If I can be of any help, please let me know,
Flynn
By all available indicators, T5 is just T4 with lots more random roll tables...
CGen and Tasks are essentially unchanged from T4.1 (the revised T4 that didn't make it to press, IIRC, but for which MWM posted several minor changes from T4.)
The big issue was skills and tasks. The one-per-year sounds great, unti you see what it does to characters in play. (MT produces an average of about 2.4 skills per term, while CT was about 1.8; T4 was running about 4.5 skills per term. The result was no significantly more depth to skills, but a constant rolling on the Personal Development Table to up stats, and LOADS of low level skills. )
If one releases a system where the characters are incompatible (due to skills or stats being differently scaled) one winds up with a major usefulness issue of older materials.
Since the bulk of the Traveller fans out there, the ones who are already fans and are making new fans by running the game, are using CT, CT compatibility makes for the ability of new players to move between games more easily.
Since the GURPS license is ongoing, the GT fans need not be considered; they can and will continue to recruit more GT players.
Keep in mind also: The majority of Reviews will be by CT players. The Grogs can make or break general opinion, as happened with several Trek movies, and T4.
Heck, I bought T4 with high hopes. I felt abused by MWM and Imperium Games after playing that steaming pile of feces. I do, however, use one rules section from it: Psionics. Best darned psionics rules of any edition, provided you don't use the one-per-year CGen.
And T4 was a lousy game: poorly worded, even worse editing, bland layout, ugly cover art, and worse still, a task system that was clunky, got in my way, and made atts 1:1 with skills for both CGen and Task Resolution.
CGen and Tasks are essentially unchanged from T4.1 (the revised T4 that didn't make it to press, IIRC, but for which MWM posted several minor changes from T4.)
The big issue was skills and tasks. The one-per-year sounds great, unti you see what it does to characters in play. (MT produces an average of about 2.4 skills per term, while CT was about 1.8; T4 was running about 4.5 skills per term. The result was no significantly more depth to skills, but a constant rolling on the Personal Development Table to up stats, and LOADS of low level skills. )
If one releases a system where the characters are incompatible (due to skills or stats being differently scaled) one winds up with a major usefulness issue of older materials.
Since the bulk of the Traveller fans out there, the ones who are already fans and are making new fans by running the game, are using CT, CT compatibility makes for the ability of new players to move between games more easily.
Since the GURPS license is ongoing, the GT fans need not be considered; they can and will continue to recruit more GT players.
Keep in mind also: The majority of Reviews will be by CT players. The Grogs can make or break general opinion, as happened with several Trek movies, and T4.
Heck, I bought T4 with high hopes. I felt abused by MWM and Imperium Games after playing that steaming pile of feces. I do, however, use one rules section from it: Psionics. Best darned psionics rules of any edition, provided you don't use the one-per-year CGen.
And T4 was a lousy game: poorly worded, even worse editing, bland layout, ugly cover art, and worse still, a task system that was clunky, got in my way, and made atts 1:1 with skills for both CGen and Task Resolution.
Border Reiver
Mongoose
Amen Aramis, Amen.
I'll will buy Mong Trav. If I don't like it, it'll go on the shelf and look pretty with the rest of my collection. I have high hopes though (and low expectations of T5 now) with some serious backing from Mongoose.
Here's hoping Marc hands over the T5 manuscript over to some professional editors to fix into something half readable (let alone playable :roll: ).
I'll will buy Mong Trav. If I don't like it, it'll go on the shelf and look pretty with the rest of my collection. I have high hopes though (and low expectations of T5 now) with some serious backing from Mongoose.
Here's hoping Marc hands over the T5 manuscript over to some professional editors to fix into something half readable (let alone playable :roll: ).
Border Reiver said:
Given his history, Not bloody likely, BR, not bloody likely.
I won't buy until I've checked the SRD. If I like the SRD, I'll buy the game. As I did with MRQ Companion and MRQ Monsters. If I don't like the SRD (in short, if it's the xd6 task system and/or 1 skill per year), I won't buy, and will just adapt the SRD for my own needs.
For now, I think I've done what I can. I've put my desires out there. Note also for those who don't know me from COTI: I am NOT a CT fan-boy; I'm a MegaTraveller fan-boy. What I want is a CT derivative. (MT's just a hare's breadth too complex for my current uses... and yes, I said hare, as in rabbit, instead of hair as in fur, on purpose.)
AKAramis said:
With CT there's something of a stark division between crunchy books and fluffy books, mind you. The adventures and supplements typically have so little crunch in them that you could run them with a group of D&D characters or a selection of Nobilis with very little significant modification. The crunchy books will break the moment you try and apply them to a new system.
Of course, the backwards compatibility issue is always present with any new version of a game. Short of just reprinting the old books verbatim (which we ain't doing) you just have to accept that some older materials are going to go 'boink' every time you update.
Mongoose Chris said:
The problem with the history of Traveller is that every time it gets updated, half of the new rules are more playable than the old rules and the other half are less playable. Here's hoping that Mongoose will improve parts of Traveller without breaking parts that work. I would personally suggest a thorough playtest with a group of experienced NON-TRAVELLER players to get some good feedback.
For me, the newest Traveller is like any other game. If it works, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, then I won't.
Good Luck.
[EDIT: PS. Even just reprinting CT verbatim will not work. The Book 2 rules contradict the Book 5 rules which contradict the Striker rules which contradict the Azanti High Lightening rules which contradict the Snapshot rules. All of these are "Classic Traveller" to someone.]
Marquis-de-Carabas
Mongoose
Flynn said:
As I stated before, including World Generation and Starship Creation wouldn't be wise. An indenpendent publisher doesn't need to publish those. It would probably hurt MongTrav's sales figures.
What I think, we can hope for is a clause like in T20: World Generation and Starship Creation rules are not OGC, but worlds and ships created using those rules are.
Also, I guess that some important part of Character Generation will not be made OGC. In Runequest, how to roll up Stats is not OGC. So maybe we'll see the same for Traveller. Or maybe Careers and Career tables are OGC, but how to progress through those tables isn't.
We just have to remember that the key to successful OGLing for the publisher is to withhold key elements of the rules, otherwise some indenpendent publisher can produce the rules set with a better layout, colors or whatever.
And in the case of Mongoose producing to a higher quality standard is a no-brainer. Sorry, as much as I like Runequest and other stuff, but printing quality has definietly devolved.
<edited for typos>
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