Concerning the Soldier

[David St-Michel]

I have to ask something out loud, it's been bugging me since I began to play Conan 2nd edition.

Why does the Soldier class have 2 skill points per level?

I'll assume the following reasons :

1- Starts off with every Simple and Martial weapons.
2- Starts off with every single type of armor made for human beings.
3- Is a big old Lego block with an army of Feats.
4- Can use his Formation combat with his buddies at higher levels, thus giving them some interesting combat advantages.


On the other side of the coin...
1- A couple of classes begin with Simple and Martial weapons.
2- Again, a few classes have access to Light and Medium armor, which is pretty good considering a lot of players won't bother with the enormous Heavy Armor except if they're going out into a full-scale war.
3- Most other "fighting" classes have some interesting class abilities that make them efficient one-on-one fighters.
4- ...Well, I can't say much for this counter-point.


But all in all, I have some difficulty to see why only the Soldier class has 2 + Int mod) skill points per level, whereas even other fighting classes like the Nomad and Barbarian have (4 + Int mod) per level.

What do you think? Are the Soldier's abilities enough to explain why he has a measley 2 skill points per level?

(Please note that the grammar in this post is in the masculine form for simplicity of text only. I have no problem with women soldiers in the least, especially not in the Hyborian world.)

 

[VincentDarlage]

I think it is to offset the large amounts of feats - and presumably to represent the lack of training in anything other than weapons and so on during the Hyborian age.

Personally, I have considered raising the limit to 3 skill points per level because I think 2 skill points per level is too low, but 4 puts it too much on par with the borderer. On the other hand, in my games, the couple of players who like the soldier don't seem too bothered by the low skill points.

I am not sure what Ian Sturrock's rationale for that was, though.

 

[treeplanter]

What I did:

I gave soldier player 4 skills point at first level only (for 8 skills point more total). Otherwise it just to tempting to start as a borderer, nomad or barbarian then switch to soldier and I wanted to avoid that.

 

[David St-Michel]

Well I understand that the Soldier is pretty much a combat machine, and 90% of his effort goes into being a more efficient combat machine.

I just feel that it's a stiff drop from, say, the Barbarian. Gets 4 skill points per level, full BAB, nice defences, Crimson Mist, Versatility... And that's at low levels. Mixing in the Mobility stuff makes him pretty deadly, even when compared to the Soldier.

I guess they wanted to emulate the Barbarian as running around, slaying wildly, whereas the Soldier is the slow, grinding killer.

 

[David St-Michel]

Well I understand that the Soldier is pretty much a combat machine, and 90% of his effort goes into being a more efficient combat machine.

I just feel that it's a stiff drop from, say, the Barbarian. Gets 4 skill points per level, full BAB, nice defences, Crimson Mist, Versatility... And that's at low levels. Mixing in the Mobility stuff makes him pretty deadly, even when compared to the Soldier.

I guess they wanted to emulate the Barbarian as running around, slaying wildly, whereas the Soldier is the slow, grinding killer.

 

[VincentDarlage]

What I did:

I gave soldier player 4 skills point at first level only (for 8 skills point more total). Otherwise it just to tempting to start as a borderer, nomad or barbarian then switch to soldier and I wanted to avoid that.

That is an innovative fix! I like that.

 

[David St-Michel]

heh...

Sorry about the doublepost.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah Barbarian is a real killer that true. However combat wise i think soldier is just plainly better. The fact his parry bonus is synergic with strenght make him the hardest to kill once combat is ongoing.

Weapon focus and spec mean he'll do more damage on average than the barbarian with his prefered weapon. Also since you get ton of feat you can spare some on more situationnal thing like mounted combat or other combat trick like Cleave or Drive your ennemies for some situational boost. And finally you are allowed heavy armor if availaible, wich is well, heavy.

Were Barbarian outmatch the soldier is speed. Soldier have poor init. Also since you don't have uncanny dodge you're more vulnerable to sneak attack and 1st round blow out.

Personnaly what I like with the soldier is customizability. Barbarian get so few feat that most barbarian while be pretty similar, save for the race. Borderer and nomad are a bit more customizable, and with soldier you basicly chose your power at each level, wich is pretty fun imho

 

[Ichabod]

You may want to check out these on topic threads:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23274
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36935

There are plenty of other instances in which I bemoan the unplayability of the soldier class, but I'm sure you have no need to seek for the dead horse beatings.

 

[cbrunish]

Honestly, I feel that they made the Soldier class after the Fighter class from D&D 3.5. The Fighter class has only 2 pts per level also. To me this is just too low. Personally I feel that 3 pts per level would be better. Not as good as the "Fiercest" but might give a Soldier more playability when not in combat. But I havn't yet done this in my campaign.

 

[David St-Michel]

Well, thanks for the opinions.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that the soldier is kind of left behind in the skills department, and everyone else gets more (in some cases, four times his quantity).

 

[flatscan]

You guys realize all classes in this game are meant to be multi-classed right? So yes, on it's own, a Soldier class is just good at combat but I've got a couple of Barbarian/Soldier and a Scholar/Soldier in my game and have received no complaints. Keep in mind that extra points from Intelligence can be used on any Skills, so if you don't use Int as a dump stat you'll get more points per level.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Something we did for well all DnD and D20 games that have similar skill system is. We broke the skills up into general skills(ones that just any person could reasonably likely to learn) and class skills(skills that mostly would only be none if you followed a very specific proffession aka class)

left class skills as they was and then gave everyone 4 general skill points that could only be used on general skills.(class skill points could be used on either) This allowed characters to be more well rounded and often the result was people would pick up hobby skills for their characters and stuff. Like cooking or take skill points in things that fit their background like profession farmer if they was raised that way ect.

Anyways just thought I would toss it out.

 

[David St-Michel]

Thanks for the suggestion Dark Mistress.

flatscan, I get what you're saying. However, I'm still on the opinion that the Soldier really gets punished for his abilities with those crappy 2 skill points per level, whereas a decently created barbarian or nomad will be almost as effective as a Soldier, and have twice as many skill points.

I'm all for multi-classing. But I'm for multi-classing by choice and circumstance. I'd rather do that then multi-class my Soldier NPC 'cause he's just too weak in the skill department to follow with the players and other NPCs.

I hope I was clearer this time.

 

[treeplanter]

"flatscan, I get what you're saying. However, I'm still on the opinion that the Soldier really gets punished for his abilities with those crappy 2 skill points per level, whereas a decently created barbarian or nomad will be almost as effective as a Soldier, and have twice as many skill points."

the keyword here is ALMOST

 

[David St-Michel]

Even then, I feel that is a debatable point.

I'm not so sure that a Barbarian or Nomad, or even a Borderer is any less effective a combattant then a Soldier is.

I think it depends on circumstance.

Example : in a mass war, my money's on the soldier.

However... On horseback (or camelback), nomad all the way.

natural setting? Borderer with favorite terrain, or barbarian (depending on what race we're speaking of).

 

[treeplanter]

Your soldier can have mounted combat exactly like the nomad. Those are just generic feat.

The fact is yes Barbarian, borderer and nomad are all good in combat, but they also get ton of ability that are not combat related.

On the other hand, soldier can choose a combat pumping ability at each level. The drawback being he is likely to be overspecialized, but that the point of being a soldier. The only departement where soldier is at huge disavantage versus the fiercest is initiative.

 

[David St-Michel]

Well, I just feel that the Soldier really gets the cold shoulder with his skill points per level.

 

[David St-Michel]

I feel that the other fighting classes are more complete and playable as single-class characters then the soldier.

Thanks to their skill points and other special abilities, they are not QUITE as effective as soldiers, but can hold their own in nearly any fight situation. Plus, they have some interesting abilities that make them... I dunno. Fuller? Complete? I'm not quite sure what term I'm searching for.

"Yes, but you are forgetting that the soldier is just that. A fighting machine."

Yes, that is true. But the Soldier is also a human being, under that chainmail and broadsword. I FEEL the barbarian with his Track, Crimson Mist, Bite sword, etc.

I FEEL the nomad with Nomad's charge, etc.

I FEEL the borderer with his abilities as well.

...I dunno about the Soldier.

Yanno?