Concerning Move Silently and Hide

"Also, if you merge those 2 skills you also have to merge spot and listen and why not search?. "
Correct. I would merge these two as well because they do the same thing (detect stealthy things". Search is (in my opinion) an entirely different skill if I understand the discription correct.

And no, I dont see every class becoming a "stealther" only because it is cheaper. Naturally, classes who wear heavier armor cant sneak around (with it)

For skill-merges "for other classes" or better other skill 'groups' I see no problem with that either if the group aggrees on it.

The problem I see with the broad selection of skills is that I (or most people) 'have' to use all their skillpoints just to be good at their chosen role in the group but then it is impossible to take some 'flavor-skills' if you know what I mean.
 
But what is good in your chosen role? Nobody said you have to max out every of your skill to be good at something.

For exemple, I consider a character with +10 in climb being a pretty good climber. But if you want to be a top notch climber, then you'll need more something around +20. Same thing apply for Hide/Mv. Silently. What force you to max them out? What prevent you to take favlour skill? (meaning, skill you used in the current adventure for exemple).

The problem is poeple seem to think that a 15th level charater automaticly need 18 rank in every skill. but this is wrong.
 
"The problem is poeple seem to think that a 15th level charater automaticly need 18 rank in every skill. but this is wrong."

Okay THAT could be the problem. In my gaming experience (okay CRPG's mostly) the game forces me to maxx out or leave it at 0.

Is might be possible with a good GM that this is not the case, but as I said I have...bad memories on the topic of skills that are not maxxed.
 
How many skills should a 15th level character have at 10+, 15+, 20+?

I don't have a great sense. Besides, it's going to vary depending upon the campaign type whether to concentrate or to diversify. In our games, athletic and knowledge skills are extremely important, which forces PCs to go for breadth and to take more esoteric skills than the usual "adventurer skills" (Spot, Search, Tumble, Heal, ...) that some people might concentrate in.

Average DCs should go up over time to maintain the challenge level. New characters should usually be faced with DCs in the 10-15 range with something very difficult being 20. At 15th level, I'd expect the most common challenging DC to be 25 with 20 being something expected to make and 30 being very difficult. Obviously, opposed rolls become harder when facing higher level adversaries.

Not that the challenges should remain the same. A low level character may be climbing a tree where a high level character may be climbing an ice wall to achieve the same purpose in the adventure.

Skills are not made all alike. You don't need everyone in the party to be knowledgeable about religion, but it helps for everybody to be able to climb. In general, higher level characters should need to diversify to handle a wider range of challenges.

I believe a lot of reasonably built PCs can get by okay with a long skill list, but there are strong disincentives to putting ranks into esoteric or flavorful skills. That's a problem to me as it makes characters look alike and I usually am on the side of character diversity.

For what it's worth, my 14th level character has 13 skills at 10+, 3 at 15+, and 1 at 20+. That's quite different from treeplanter's character (from the other thread) that has 5 at 15+ and 2 at 20+ as a 12th level character.

Actually, here's a pretty good example of differing priorities with these two characters. Mine is also an archer and has a Craft: Bowyer bonus of 10, where his character appears to put no ranks in it, for a bonus of 3. Is C:B useful? Until recently, it was pretty much irrelevant. I recall making a roll like once. Still, the genre should support the idea that weapons need to be replaced on the fly. I do feel like I've found a way to make the skill useful by having custom designs be gifts, so I'm not annoyed by sinking ranks in it. And, of course, such a character should have this skill at a decent level. I'm not as thrilled, though, when having to make swim checks with a bonus of 3 or search checks with a bonus of 4 because I'm stretched far too thin.

Put another way, it's a strawman argument to believe anyone wants characters to have 18 ranks in everything or even just be +18 at everything. There are always going to be skills that characters suck at unless you remove most of the skills in the game; if they never matter, then they don't need to exist, if they do matter, then the character is not going to be competent at everything. Now, some level of sucktactitude helps make RPGs work better as it justifies being part of a party, a team. OTOH, this isn't D&D where parties are supposed to be designed as interlocking puzzles of specific skill sets with magic solving everything. Being reasonably competent at a lot of different skills makes more sense to me thematically, just as your typical fantasy protagonist is skilled in numerous areas.
 
I ommited some skills, I've something like 3 rank in C: Bower (2 were free from background skill).

It just never never happened I had to craft a bow, but it sure can prove useful depending of the adventure.

In any case I think skill should be increased as per what the character did in the adventure. This flesh out you character. And in the end it's part of GM job to adapt to what the PC can do.
 
What the problem is (at least in some people's and my eyes) that every character who wants to use stealth well, he has to burn two (precious) skillpoints to do that.

That is not a problem. that is the whole point. There are several classes whose main reason for being, or at least a big plus, is that they have lots of skill points. Stealth and perception are split exactly so that it takes more skill points to be good. After all, if the 4/level barbarian can buy all the skills he wants, who would ever play a thief?
 
"who would ever play a thief?"

Because the Thief has even more skillpoints? and sneak attacks? And is the only class who can find/disarm traps above a certain DC?

I still think its bad design if I have to spend all my skillpoints just to be able to do th basic stuff of the class. In other words everything that is not combat I have to put skillpoints in it.
 
DooMJake said:
I still think it is a stupid idea to seperate these two skills.
If one wants just to hide, they can still do that with a merged skill. No one is preventing them from doing it.
What the problem is (at least in some people's and my eyes) that every character who wants to use stealth well, he has to burn two (precious) skillpoints to do that.

But what is skill consolidation/merging supposed to be "solving"? Too many words on the character sheet? No. It's meant to eliminate excassive die rolling by having points in one skill rather than two to speed up the game, or it's meant to have a single repository for skill points thus allowing players to spread those skill points more freely subsequently getting lots more ranks in skills that they wouldn't have otherwise.

See, you can't put more ranks in a consolidated/merged skill - it still is limited by max ranks. However, if you have only one skill entry on which to place points rather than two or even three skills, then a Barbarian who would not have otherwise been able to add skill points to Gather Information can now do so. Under the consolidate/merge plan, players get more skill access for thier characters with no loss. The classes are built to be balanced, but to als have unique properties, and Class Skill lists are one of the latter that function to keep Barbarians from looking like Scholars, etc.


David St-Michel said:
I hadn't thought of the aspect of over-specialisation, where everyone knows how to do everything.

I should re-evaluate my position. :)

That's the other point I was trying to make. Already in Conan RPG, character have no need to invest skill points in language slots, opening up a good number of skill points that can be alocated to skills they'd otherwise no have been able to take in a D&D game or whatever. You see the point though.

DooMJake said:
"Also, if you merge those 2 skills you also have to merge spot and listen and why not search?. "
Correct. I would merge these two as well because they do the same thing (detect stealthy things". Search is (in my opinion) an entirely different skill if I understand the discription correct.

No. They don't "both detect stealthy things". A character might need to rolla Search check to pat down or frisk an NPC to find a key he's managed to conceal using Sleight of Hand. Likewise, Spot would be more appropriate for noticing someone who has Disguised themselves in a crowd of hundreds because searching every person would ne impossible or, at least, problematic.

I was being tongue in cheek with the whole "unimaginative clod" remark, and I thought I'd been clear about that as a humorous epitaph and collection of resultant staements. Cut the "both detect stealthy things" remark borders on proving my point. Sonsolidation/merging of skills cheapens the access that certain classes recieve by virtue of Class SKill lists or by being granted large numbers of skill points as opposed to classes that have fewer (Soldiers, etc.).
 
I meant Spot and Listen as the two skills who detect stealthy things. I agree that Search is a different skill.

" However, if you have only one skill entry on which to place points rather than two or even three skills, then a Barbarian who would not have otherwise been able to add skill points to Gather Information can now do so."
And that is exactly my point. Most players spend skillpoints on the skills which they 'need' for a)combat (sneaking, riding and so forth) b) their role (healer, spotter, trap-disarmer) first and then on skills which are nice to have from an RP point of view. But for most classes they cant even afford to buy all their skills from the 'b' category and so are either ineffective in their role (are not maxxing/heavy investing in their 'role-skills) or can do nothing else.

If the players have a few more skillpoints (which would be free if the skill-lists are merged) they can spend them on 'not super-effective but fits the character' skills.
 
But that is the point. Not everything needs to be "most combat effective". Make the PC you want to play, and have fun. Maximum combat effectiveness is not always the most fun to play, or to play with.
 
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