Concerning Conan
- Thread starter David St-Michel
- Start date
kintire said:
Conan's legend isn't legit. That is all the comment implied - you agree Conan's legend is suspect and I believe that not only is Conan's legend legit - he could easily have done even more. It's not about specifics - it's as general as you can get. Why would you buy a RPG of a hero who's legend is possibly false? Why would he be popular for 70+ years if he was fake?
Of course the comment was flippant - it was the response that it is a legitimate position that I called ridiculous. It's not too serious - its just not what you agree with. Hey, no problem. But the cover does say Conan for a reason.
Strom said:
So because it's obvious he couldn't have done EVERYTHING said about him(like managing to be in Valerium raid and being prisoner at the same time) he's fake?
Interesting.
But no way. And indeed this obviously false stories about him just add to the character. Legends have funny habit of getting tons of false stories added to them so it's just sensible that larger than life character like Conan gets stuff credited to him he didn't do and things he COULDN'T have done(like being in Valerium raid and being prisoner far away at the same time). It's side product of being a legend.
tneva82 said:
Your thinking small man. Your thinking specifics. This is legend. This is Conan. What about the What if? stories from Marvel man? Think they fit in the legend of Conan - I do. Why? Because its Conan! Maybe its an alternate timeline or universe - but its still Conan. Think big like Conan does - like Roy Thomas does - like we all do when we run Conan adventures. No one wants to play in a realistic, stench filled, disease rotted, life expectancy of 28 type of RPG man - we want the freaking Hyborian Age - we want Robert E. Howard type legendary sword & sorcery. Believe me dude - Conan's legend isn't done yet man - who knows maybe he will show up in your game if you have the clockweights.
Strom said:
So explain how Conan could participiate in Valerium raid and be prisoner far away at the same time if you think that's what really happened for Conan. Would be interesting to hear how you rationalise that happened for conan. this isn't some D&D high fantasy where that might be magically possible. This is Conan where magic isn't such a deus ex machina solution to everything.
We want hideously contrived false dilemmas!
Oh no, wait...
No one, bar you, has suggested adding stench, disease of anything like that to Conan. The most anyone has said is that if you are running a game in the Hyborian Age, or immersing yourself in it any other way, and you take the background even slightly seriously the fact that Conan has more than one account of his birth and early life requires explanation.
Added to that, you appear to be under the impression that any addition to Conan's tales improve them. When I see a "Conan" tale that has him acting like a wangst-ridden naval gazing incompetent, or has him sieze a throne and then decalre that he is not worthy of it and ride into the sunset, instead of taking that kingdom and turning it into an EMPIRE, then I am quite happy to punt them out.
kintire said:
Man - you are all over the map. I don't have the time to debate you on all these issues you or tneav82 are creating. Just ask yourself this - what if someone likes the same story you hate? Is that story a part of the Conan's legend? Of course it is - just because you hate it (or add realism to the legend (like my dirt & grime analogy) ) - or it doesn't fit your contrived timeline (tneav82) doesn't make it any less of a part of Conan's legend. Geez gents - it is very simple. Throw on more heroic acts - or brash fun adventures - it's a living breathing legend and it can handle it. That is why Conan is so damn cool - his incredible adventures. Why do you like him? Lets start that discussion - I bet no one posts - because I don't think Conan did as much as his legend likes to promote.
To add my bit of the story to the entire discussion about Conan's true-or-not CV, I'll say that that the concept of Conan is capacious enough to hold each and every story, whether by REH himself or by anyone else.
Let's just look at it this way: literacy in the Hyborian Age wasn't a common skill. The Cimmerian surely wasn't able to read or write for quite a while and even when he finally learned that in the end, he simply didn't have time due to his adventurous life, kingship etc. So, there isn't practically any material written by Conan himself, which implies that the stories of his exploits were long limited to oral tales of adventure.
Now, such tales were often born from Conan himself, as he's telling them in various inns or at campsites during his voyages. What could prevent him from changing bits of the stories here and there? Nothing. He could freely manipulate facts and dates and, as the word spread it also evolved to the point of sometimes becoming something totally different than originally.
As a result, no one can say anything certain about Conan's life. On the other hand, everybody can assume it just the way he likes most.
Let's just look at it this way: literacy in the Hyborian Age wasn't a common skill. The Cimmerian surely wasn't able to read or write for quite a while and even when he finally learned that in the end, he simply didn't have time due to his adventurous life, kingship etc. So, there isn't practically any material written by Conan himself, which implies that the stories of his exploits were long limited to oral tales of adventure.
Now, such tales were often born from Conan himself, as he's telling them in various inns or at campsites during his voyages. What could prevent him from changing bits of the stories here and there? Nothing. He could freely manipulate facts and dates and, as the word spread it also evolved to the point of sometimes becoming something totally different than originally.
As a result, no one can say anything certain about Conan's life. On the other hand, everybody can assume it just the way he likes most.
I think the point is that some of the pastiches have Conan acting in a manner that is utterly at odds with his character as described by Howard. It's not about whether he could have squeezed those adventures in at some point, it's about whether he'd then have to be some bizzare multiple-personality freak. If you want Conan to be a reasonably believable character, you need to discard some of the pastiches because they don't have him acting in any way like Howard's Conan. And of course it's worth discarding most of the pastiches on the grounds that they're just not very well written. But that's a different issue.
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Demetrio said:
Different authors have slightly different points of view.
Look at the first few books of the New Testament. There are even differences in the story of Jesus.
It doesn't make them "bad" or unworthy of reading.
I beg to differ. I think a few of the pastiches are extremely bad (Steve Perry, Roland Green), but most are good. Several are great.
The few stinkers have given the pastiches a bad name.
John Maddox Roberts is a good read.
Robert Jordan is a good read.
L. Sprague de Camp is a good read.
With just those three authors, we're covering the majority of the pastiches written. Besides these, there are some other authors that ain't so good, and there are some that only wrote a few books or stories that are actually pretty good (like Andrew Offutt's trilogy....good stuff).
Offut's books are okay. His writing isn't that great but his stories are decent.
Sprague de Camp's Conan is just bizarre at times. Often needing other characters to win fights for him. Howard's Conan sometimes needs help, but he never needs help in a fight. Nor does he ever show any inclination to get married and settle down and lead a quiet life. When he finally marries, he does so as a king.
I've read Maddox Roberts's Conan the Marauder and I thought it came quite close, at times, to Howard.
And I think the Jesus analogy is quite a good one. Clearly many folk who wrote about him were just plain wrong.
Sprague de Camp's Conan is just bizarre at times. Often needing other characters to win fights for him. Howard's Conan sometimes needs help, but he never needs help in a fight. Nor does he ever show any inclination to get married and settle down and lead a quiet life. When he finally marries, he does so as a king.
I've read Maddox Roberts's Conan the Marauder and I thought it came quite close, at times, to Howard.
And I think the Jesus analogy is quite a good one. Clearly many folk who wrote about him were just plain wrong.
David St-Michel
Mongoose
wow, this is getting just plain silly.
And I'm getting strange images when I read of Jesus and Conan in the same thread.
Either the immense Cimmerian sitting down, chin on clenched fist, listening to some bearded jewish man preaching to him of love and acceptance of others...
...Or a puddle of blood, and a Cimmerian leaving the scene.
And I'm getting strange images when I read of Jesus and Conan in the same thread.
Either the immense Cimmerian sitting down, chin on clenched fist, listening to some bearded jewish man preaching to him of love and acceptance of others...
...Or a puddle of blood, and a Cimmerian leaving the scene.
David St-Michel
Mongoose
Speaking of Conan...
I've seen the guy's stats at level 3.
And I really just stood there for a second, checking it all a few times.
I imagined Conan as a powerful character. It was a natural assumption. Any grand hero, like Aragorn, Drizzt Do'Urden and the like are gifted characters. They have statistics that are above the norm, even around other heroic characters.
But this is a step beyond.
Conan has -how- much Wisdom? :lol:
That's not just a heroic character. That's a dude that had a +6 BAB -at level one, mind you-, and still had an army of skill points for his high intel.
And a couple of 16+ stats here and there, just to round things out.
Wow. Just... wow.
I've seen the guy's stats at level 3.
And I really just stood there for a second, checking it all a few times.
I imagined Conan as a powerful character. It was a natural assumption. Any grand hero, like Aragorn, Drizzt Do'Urden and the like are gifted characters. They have statistics that are above the norm, even around other heroic characters.
But this is a step beyond.
Conan has -how- much Wisdom? :lol:
That's not just a heroic character. That's a dude that had a +6 BAB -at level one, mind you-, and still had an army of skill points for his high intel.
And a couple of 16+ stats here and there, just to round things out.
Wow. Just... wow.
