[CONAN] Tweak to Optional Intimidation Rule

[Supplement Four]

If you look in Hyboria's Fiercest, you'll see an interesting optional rule for the Intimidate skill. Check out pg. 54. Vincent present a good point in stating that Barbarian characters can be quite intimidating but usually have low CHA scores.

Makes sense, right? Something like this walks out of the battlefield gloom, and it might be somewhat intimidating. Chances are this guy isn't going to charm the pants off of anyone, but yet he should have a decent Intimidate/demoralize opponent chance.

I like what Vincent suggests--that we use any of the othe stats as the base governor for the Intimidate skill.

Here's my one tweak, though. Let's see what you think.

Players are going to naturally use their highest skill when using the Intimidate skill to demoralize opponents.

I suggest that the skill be purchased as a CHA skill, just as it is originally intended, but for the demoralize opponent aspect in combat, a player can use a different stat to replace CHA (as Vincent suggests in the book).

Still, it seems to me that this shouldn't be an automatic--that automatically the demoralize opponent function of the Intimidate skill be used with the character's highest stat. My reasoning is that part of CHA is knowing how to implement the intimidation. Some people are clueless in this regard. A big, hulking form could have more of a familiar or blank feeling to that person rather than a meanacing aspect.

Therefore, I suggest applying any CHA penalties to the demoralization attempt.



Here's an example.

A barbarian character has Intimidate +2 and CHA 8 (-1). Yet, he has STR 18 (+4).

When attempting to demoralize an opponent, the barbarian can flex his musles and give a grim look to his enemy, replacing STR for CHA on his demoralize attempt.

Under Vincent's expanded rule, the barbarian would throw Intimidate +6. But, I'm suggesting to include an CHA penalties the character may have. Thus, I would suggest STR +4, Intimidate +2, and CHA -1, for a total of Intimidate +5.

I also like the idea of allowing bonuses to the demoralize throw for things like the skull mask that this warrior wears in the picture.

Thoughts?

 

[Jeraa]

I believe, if charisma penalties are used, then charisma bonuses should be used to.

Something like, Strength determines your base level of scariness. Your Charisma determines how well you can use that innate scariness. Some (those with charisma bonuses) know how to get more out of their innate scariness (by adding both their Strength and Charisma bonuses).

Quoting what you said:

When attempting to demoralize an opponent, the barbarian can flex his muscles and give a grim look to his enemy...

Flexing his muscles = Strength added
Giving a grim look = Charisma added

Edit: I was also going to suggest using size modifiers too, but that is already covered in the Intimidate skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

I believe, if charisma penalties are used, then charisma bonuses should be used to.

There is precedent in the game for only using penalties and not bonuses. If a character has a DEX penalty, then you always apply it to his Defense at all times, including while being flat-footed, or attemting to Dodge or Parry. DEX bonuses are sometimes ignored (as when Flat-Footed), but the penalty is always used.

That's why I felt OK using the CHA penalties.

 

[Jeraa]

I know. But adding both Strength and Charisma bonuses to Intimidate also makes sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

I know. But adding both Strength and Charisma bonuses to Intimidate also makes sense.

I'm not sure I agree with that as you might inflate the Demoralize Enemy check so that it doesn't balance with the target's check to resist.

A character combining a high CHA and high STR mod plus points he put into the Intimidate skills (plus a +2 bonus for, say, being dressed might easily overwhelm any check to avoid being demoralized.

I think it should be one or the other, and if you're socially inept with a low CHA, that should effect your attempt to show your muscles when trying to demoralize someone.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

2nd edition advises Barbarian players to invest points in the CHA stat from the start, and Intimidate is a Class Skill for Barbarians. Why would Barbarians have quite low CHA values?

The rules are fine as they stand IMO.

 

[Supplement Four]

2nd edition advises Barbarian players to invest points in the CHA stat from the start...

Where do you see that?

Why would Barbarians have quite low CHA values?

That's what Vincent says in Fiercest--that many Barbarianshave low CHA values--which is why he suggests the optional Intimidate rule in the first place.

 

[Jeraa]

The rules as they stand say my 15 year old sister and someone the size of Conan are both equally intimidating (Assuming equal Charisma scores). I don't know about you, but most people I would assume would be more scared of someone like Conan charging at them than my little sister. Even just standing there, the big muscle-bound man is more intimidating than her.

 

[Supplement Four]

The rules as they stand say my 15 year old sister and someone the size of Conan are both equally intimidating (Assuming equal Charisma scores). I don't know about you, but most people I would assume would be more scared of someone like Conan charging at them than my little sister. Even just standing there, the big muscle-bound man is more intimidating than her.

Brother, that's a very good point.



EDIT:

Actually, upon thinking about it, that's not quite the case. Your 15 year old sister may have a very high CHA score, but she's got to roll against the target's level check. This check considers character level, WIS mod, and any bonuses the character gets against fear.

I'm thinking the designers had your very same thought, which is why they created the level check instead of using Sense Movtive or some other defense to intimidation.

I'm guessing your Conan-esque intimidator will have some significant bonuses because of his level and such that will easily defeat your 15 year old sister, even if she has a 20 CHA.

 

[Jeraa]

Well, I was suggesting someone like Conan physically - all muscles. Not necessarily with Conans experience (levels).

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I was suggesting someone like Conan physically - all muscles. Not necessarily with Conans experience (levels).

Ah. And, that's a good case for Vincent's alternate rule in Fiercest where characters can use other stat mods for their Intimidate skill.



And this begs the question: How would you (or anybody reading this thread) have a player buy the Intimidate skill with his character's skill points?

Would you buy it on a different skill? Say maybe, Intimidate based on STR?

Or, would you do like I've done and have the player buy the skill as normal (Intimidage based on CHA), but allow the player to use whatever stat mod is most appropriate (usually his highest one) for the type of intimidation he's trying to pull?

Or some other method?

 

[Jeraa]

I'm not a fan of assigning a single ability score to a skill. I prefer something like what Mongoose did with their version of Traveller, add whatever ability score fits what the character is doing.

For example, knowing how to make a piece of intricate jewelry wold be Intelligence, but actually making it could be Dexterity. Short distance power swims would use Strength, but long distance endurance swims would use Constitution. Knowing how to pick a lock would be Intelligence, but actually doing it could be Dexterity.

 

[Supplement Four]

For example, knowing how to make a piece of intricate jewelry wold be Intelligence, but actually making it could be Dexterity. Short distance power swims would use Strength, but long distance endurance swims would use Constitution. Knowing how to pick a lock would be Intelligence, but actually doing it could be Dexterity.

Makes sense, but not exactly RAW.

 

[Jeraa]

I know its not RAW. Makes sense to me. But I can see why they made the game the way they did - its easier to remember a single ability score for each skill.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Where do you see that?

Conan 2nd edition page 42.

I'm not sure why you say that Barbarians have low CHA scores. Why can't Barbarians have high CHA scores?

Jeraa

Presumably, your sister doesn't have Intimidate as a Class Skill, unlike the Barbarian, which does.

I'd say, as a general rule of thumb, the 2nd edition rulebook should probably take precedence over any rules tinkering in the 3Fs books. YMMV, of course.

 

[Jeraa]

Maybe I should of been clearer - I was suggesting someone with the same physical appearance as my 15 year old sister. That person could be a level 20 thief, or pirate, or something.

Just saying, all other things being equal, a large muscle-bound person should be more intimidating that some slim teenage girl. Hence why I suggested adding both Strength and Charisma to Intimidate checks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Conan 2nd edition page 42.

OK, I'll check it out.

I'm not sure why you say that Barbarians have low CHA scores. Why can't Barbarians have high CHA scores?

Hyboria's Fiercest, pg. 54.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'm not sure why you say that Barbarians have low CHA scores. Why can't Barbarians have high CHA scores?

Hyboria's Fiercest, pg. 54.

Thanks. Yes, I can see that he says it, I'm just not sure why he does. I guess he states this as a consequence of the Barbarian needing high scores in STR, CON and DEX, as well as CHA and INT (!). The system detailed in Fiercest offers more complexity than I personally like. Interesting, but I wouldn't use it in actual play.

I think the Barbarian is a little too overpowered already, to be honest, (debatable, perhaps). I wouldn't be tempted to give the class even more tweaks and preferences. If a GM wished, I guess he could offer a straight +2 to characters with a high STR/CON on checks against NPCs with small frames, but the need for this buff would disappear fairly quickly once the Barbarian gained a few levels.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thanks. Yes, I can see that he says it, I'm just not sure why he does.

Well, your typical Barbarian isn't one to be the life of the party. Cimmerian barbarians are quite blunt and liable to tear your head off if you insult them. Most hyborians don't respect them, thinking them "lesser" people. Even Conan had a hard time getting men to follow him--he had to earn their respect and usually started earning it from a deficit.

This isn't the type of character that probably has a high CHA among people other than their own kind.

I believe this is Vincent's point when writing that section in Fiercest. That hulking barbarian might not be somebody you trust or gravitate to, as you do with other people of high Charisma, but that doesn't mean the hulking, muscle bound, feral eyed warrior isn't intimidating.

Take at look at that dude in the OP. He doesn't have to say a word to be intimidating. All he's got to do is stand there. Would just standing there be considered a CHA based skill? Isn't there a good argument for using other skills paramount to making the dude intimidating? No doubt, his garb gets him at least a +2 bonus, but his stats have to play in there some how.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I think we're talking at cross purposes to some extent. My point would be that there is nothing game wise which indicates that barbarians have to have low CHA scores. I mean, they aren't penalised at all in that area, and, in fact, the class skill of Intimidate pretty much guarantees that they'll be naturally intimidating after a few levels, (if they're played straight). I don't think there's any game mileage in also giving a 1st level, gawky barbarian teenager a 'natural' intimidation buff. In the stories about Conan's youth, (low levels), he always seemed slightly ill-at-ease himself when first encountering the trappings of civilization. He certainly did not intimidate everyone from the get-go.

Looking through a number of threads on this board about buffing barbarian characters seems to neglect the fact, a little, that barbarians at mid to high levels are leaping, jumping, berserk, savage killing machines. They hardly ever get caught flat footed, (if at all), do not provoke AoO, can dodge more or less at will, (even traps), and are hard enough to kill even when they have no hit points left! A little lack of natural intimidation at low levels isn't going to put players off from choosing to play barbarians. And they only have to watch out for the odd powerful Sygian sorcerer later on, which is as it should be...