Conan of Venarium

[Old Bear]

I just recently read Conan of Venarium and fundamentally agree that it doesn't present an accurate picture of the Cimmerians. Frankly, the simple fact is that the Cimmerians are too civilized and live in too much of a settled existence to accurately be called Barbarians by any stretch of the imagination.

I recommend reading it though, because it is fun. It's just about a bunch of Poitans who are being conquered by Aquilonians.

While I disagree with Age of Conan on almost everything, I tend to agree that Cimmerians are a scary looking people and even their women should frighten the Hell out of you. They get coolness by proxy for being Conan's people. Conan is exceptional even amongst Cimmerians but they should be tougher by nature simply because they're the Barbarianiest in a world whose innate rules says Barbarians kick ass.

At the very least, they should be as uncivilized as the Wildlings in George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice." They're a crazy people to the North that everyone knows about but no one really understands. They live by their own laws, they live by their own ways, they breed like rabbits, and they kill like madmen.

Harry Turtledove makes one mistake in this otherwise fine piece of Medieval (not Hyborean Age) fiction and that's that he attempts to make us empathize with Conan. Conan and the Cimmerians are not people to be empathized with. They're being to admired and appreciated like wild animals. Turtledove makes Conan a boy hero and that's really something he shouldn't be.

For me it's a hideous monstrosity from start to finish. The notion that at 12 any boy - even Conan could outfight a grown Cimmerian warrior is laughable.

From all my Conan readings the impression I came away with about Venarium was that like any tribal people, they took their maturing youngsters into battle at some point - Conan was one of these, and he happened to survive and did passably well in the process. In Turtledove's book he rapidly becomes one of those looked up to, which is a joke.

I too hope that the Cimmeria source book doesn't touch this.

 

[Willowhugger]

For me it's a hideous monstrosity from start to finish. The notion that at 12 any boy - even Conan could outfight a grown Cimmerian warrior is laughable.

I disagree with that, if you mean Conan at 12 could KILL an adult male Cimmerian, All he has to do is slip in the knife in the right place and kill him. Of course, if you mean that Conan as a better warrior than a full adult then probably not. Then again, I have no difficulty believing Conan of REH's Cimmeria would be able to outfight an adult of harry turtledove's Cimmeria.

But not an adult of REH's Cimmeria.

;-)

From all my Conan readings the impression I came away with about Venarium was that like any tribal people, they took their maturing youngsters into battle at some point - Conan was one of these, and he happened to survive and did passably well in the process. In Turtledove's book he rapidly becomes one of those looked up to, which is a joke.

I too hope that the Cimmeria source book doesn't touch this.

Counterpoint though, Venarium in REH was when Conan was 15. It was his first battle and that would be when Conan isn't a youngster but a full grown adult. Certainly a new adult with some growing to do but Conan wouldn't be remotely a youngster at Venarium in the eyes of his fellows. There's no teenagers in the Hyborean Age. The difference between 15 and the 16 year old who kills the Spider in Tower of the Elephant is a small one.

Too much of Conan of Venarium was Conan as an adolescent.

 

[Old Bear]

I disagree with that, if you mean Conan at 12 could KILL an adult male Cimmerian, All he has to do is slip in the knife in the right place and kill him. Of course, if you mean that Conan as a better warrior than a full adult then probably not. Then again, I have no difficulty believing Conan of REH's Cimmeria would be able to outfight an adult of harry turtledove's Cimmeria.

But not an adult of REH's Cimmeria.

Yes, I of course meant the latter.

 

[Old Bear]

Counterpoint though, Venarium in REH was when Conan was 15. It was his first battle and that would be when Conan isn't a youngster but a full grown adult. Certainly a new adult with some growing to do but Conan wouldn't be remotely a youngster at Venarium in the eyes of his fellows. There's no teenagers in the Hyborean Age. The difference between 15 and the 16 year old who kills the Spider in Tower of the Elephant is a small one.

Too much of Conan of Venarium was Conan as an adolescent.

Conan was unproven at Venarium, though. It is likely that afterwards he would have been accepted by the warriors, but in my experience regardless of age untried men aren't given a lot of credibility until they have proven themselves.

Kids also develop rapidly through the teens. You can see that in the age groups at junior rugby, for example. The teams a year above absolute annihilate those below in friendly matches. It would seem Conan's real learning curve began at Venarium, and by the time he was 16 he had been through a lot, so I would think it quite possible he had developed considerably.

 

[Loz]

I guess the next regional book on Cimmeria will use this novel for the background. I think the only good things are the depiction of the Cimmerian tribes and life.

Well, I've just turned-in the 'Cimmeria' manuscript, and I can tell you now that I didn't use 'Conan of Venarium' for background. I read it, loathed it, and whilst there are a few little things in there that I felt would readily extrapolate to the Howardasian rendition of Cimmerians, I've largely ignored it.

Vincent Darlage was of enormous help in writing this book, contributing some sections that I've left unchanged (and he's fully credited for his work, too. I really enjoyed corresponding with him). The approach I've taken is to look at the environment, the poem, the few references made in the core canon, and then build-up a profile of Cimmeria through its clans and geography. There is a lot of the ancient Celts in there, although I've taken a fair few Germanic barbarian influences and added those into the mix.

Whether or not a sourcebook for Cimmeria is desired or necessary is one of personal preference. I think it would be a shame not to look at the region that spawned a hero as epic as Conan; it would be like deliberately avoiding a sourcebook on Melnibone for the Elric game, for instance. What I've aimed for is that difficult, and perhaps treacherous, balance between what's known, what's hinted, what should be and what really was, along with a liberal lashing of my own intepretation. Ultimately, the goal is to be as faithful to Howard as possible, whilst extrapolating to a high degree.

I dare say there will be content in 'Cimmeria' that some people disagree with, but that's inevitable too. I do hope that the book will be welcomed, offer some great ideas for Cimmerian campaigns, and complement Vincent's superb work in the whole Conan line.

I'm happy to field advanced questions about the book, BTW!

Loz

 

[Old Bear]

It's in safe hands with you, Loz. Glad it wasn't just me that hated Turtledove's rubbish.

 

[The King]

I guess the next regional book on Cimmeria will use this novel for the background. I think the only good things are the depiction of the Cimmerian tribes and life.

Well, I've just turned-in the 'Cimmeria' manuscript, and I can tell you now that I didn't use 'Conan of Venarium' for background. I read it, loathed it, and whilst there are a few little things in there that I felt would readily extrapolate to the Howardasian rendition of Cimmerians, I've largely ignored it.Loz

Loz, did you use the material in Maddox Roberts's Conan the valorous?

 

[Loz]

Loz, did you use the material in Maddox Roberts's Conan the valorous?

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to buy or read it. I had to plough my way through the Complete Conan and Conan of Venarium (oh, that I'd seen the review beforehand...) in about ten days, so my reading was selective.

 

[Krushnak]

Nice.

 

[Strom]

Really looking forward to your effort Loz and I'm glad Vincent helped out as well. Have you seen the Quilliamas cover yet? I'm looking forward to that as well. 8)

 

[Loz]

Really looking forward to your effort Loz and I'm glad Vincent helped out as well. Have you seen the Quilliamas cover yet? I'm looking forward to that as well. 8)

Not yet... hope its suitably grim and rain-lashed!