Mr Darlage, what is wrong with JM Roberts Cimmerians ? Of course, the story in Conan the Valorous follows the Sprague "Toth-Amon arch-enemy of Conan" scheme, but I really liked Roberts depiction of Cimmeria. It seems to me that he has done some research about celts, and his northerners (the Cimmerians, but also the Aesir and Vanir) were , in my opinion well describded. What was not Howardian or disturbing for you?
Conan of Venarium
- Thread starter Bjorn the Barbarian
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VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Axerules said:
Read the Howard poem "Cimmeria", then compare it to Roberts' description. J.M. Roberts' Cimmeria did not come across as mysterious, bleak or anything like how Conan described it in Phoenix on the Sword. It is just opinion, but J.M. Roberts' excursion into Cimmeria did nothing for me.
- Thank you for your quick answer Mr Darlage. I've read the poem, and I don't mean that JM Roberts can be compared to REH. None of the pastiche writers could! But you seemed to put H. Turtledove and JM Roberts at the same level, and I strongly disagree with that.
- Perhaps you're right about the fact that his Cimmeria is less mysterious and bleak as Howard's. But as soon as someone start to write a story SET in Cimmeria, Cimmeria becomes less mysterious than in a short poem. I just have the feeling that JM Roberts has very well shown barbaric mindset, his northerners are grim and unforgiving, living harsh and short lifes, not the kind of people who could live 3 years under Aquilonian settlers rule before taking arms like the ridiculous guys in Turtledove stories.
- Mr Darlage, I read on Conan.com this thread about Conan the Valorous. Your post about it there said that the thing "that ruined it" for you was the fact that JMR doesn't describe Cimmeria as "darkly wooded". It's an oversight, but is it so important ? Perhaps the bleak and misty atmosphere was not enough pregnant in this story. I'm a huge REH fan and, believe me, I'm really not kind when I explain to my friends what I think of pastiches. It seems that on Conan.com most REH fans, including Dale Rippke liked this one.
- My earlier post question was about JMR's Cimmerians and if they were un-Howardian. You answered by expressing your feelings about Cimmeria , and compared JMR's 150 pages-lenght foray in Cimmeria with a powerful, evocative and brilliant 32-lines poem by REH, telling that JMR's Cimmeria was "less mysterious". It is indeed, but any story set in Cimmeria will. Can I have a specific answer about the barbarians describded by JMR, please ? I do respect your opinion and would be interested in it.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I honestly don't remember them; the Cimmerians themselves left no impression on my mind one way or the other. I used information from that novel in Road of Kings, so I apparently didn't think they were a complete waste of time (unlike Turtledove's novel, which is a complete waste of time for me). Other than that, all I can say is that they did not leave an impression on me, for good or for ill.
I remember thinking that was JMR's worst novel, having a whole middle section that has nothing to do with the beginning or end of the novel, and I remember disliking his version of Cimmeria, but I simply do not have a recollection of the actual Cimmerians. Therefore I have no opinion on them beyond finding them unremarkable in hindsight.
I will probably re-read the Cimmerian section of that novel should I be asked to write a Cimmeria sourcebook, so I might revisit your question should that happen.
I remember thinking that was JMR's worst novel, having a whole middle section that has nothing to do with the beginning or end of the novel, and I remember disliking his version of Cimmeria, but I simply do not have a recollection of the actual Cimmerians. Therefore I have no opinion on them beyond finding them unremarkable in hindsight.
I will probably re-read the Cimmerian section of that novel should I be asked to write a Cimmeria sourcebook, so I might revisit your question should that happen.
Actually, one of the things I liked about it was that it didn't. Thoth Amon is involved, and his character is developed in ways that aren't entirely Howardian, but his essential role is very similar to Phoenix on the Sword or, perhaps closer, God in the Bowl. He is involved in the story entirely due to his own goals and desires, sorcerous and Stygian politics. He never give the slightest sign of caring about Conan, or even knowing about him.
It is certainly true that it is not a novel. It's a collection of four short stories with only a slight connection to each other. Approached in this light, its actually quite fun.
kintire said:
I remembered about it that Thoth Amon said he knew Conan since a long time, but I probably made a confusion with another story. Edited: in fact I often read the last 150 pages and not the beginning of the story, I made a confusion because I believed that Thoth appeared earlier, before his meeting with Hathor Ka in chapter 11. I remembered Thoth speaking with a Stygian acolyte saying he knew Conan. It seems I confused the traitor SenMut in the Valorous with Menkara from the Buccaneer (horrible book, I didn't open it till 10 years), written by L Carter and Sprague DC. My fault. You put things straight. I'm happy Maddox Roberts didn't write this.
Thank you for the answer. I was a history teacher here in (modern-day) Tarantia , and I can tell you that JMR has done a lot of research about the celts. Their clan names, war paints, looks and weapons were pretty accurate. And, like I said it before I had, only with JMR amongst all pastiche writers, the feeling of reading about barbarians (not only Cimmerians), that were true to REH's. Of course his novels are far from REH stories, but at least I liked his depictions of northerners tribes very much.VincentDarlage said:
DourDeadlyPuritan
Mongoose
I think it's a mistake to make the Cimmerians a carbon copy of the Celts. It should be a mish mash of various real world barbarians and perhaps something more.
Celts lived in an aera that covers large parts of modern Europe, including (but not limited too) the Highlands of Scottland. Howard didn't write about mountains in the poem Cimmeria but about "Hills". Beside he made references to Celtic gods, but also the list of Cimmerian names he left us are definitively Celtic too.The King said:
Dourdeadlypuritain and The King, you should read the end of REH's Hyborian Age essay, he wrote: "The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerians clans" IMO, it was really clear in Howard's mind. Being the ancestors of the Gaels, they are not a "carbon-copy", but the link between those people are clear. Just like the Vanir are not a seafaring people in Howard's Hyborian Age like real world vikings, the Cimmerians can be slighty altered. The Cimmerians, being ancestors of the Celts in REH's world, are probably less an evolved culture too. But the connection is not questionnable.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Man descends from ape but does an ape looks like or behave like a human?
You can't compare through this way of evolution. If the Cimmerians descended from the Celts however, it would have been a good job to use this culture to figure them out.
The probability is high that Howard created the Cimmerians from the Cymry, gaellic tribes who lived in Cumbria. There is an excellent description of this race in the Pendragon RPG. By extrapolation, it could be possible that King Arthur belonged to this race.
Moreover don't forget that menhirs and dolmens (stone formations) were in used long before the Celts.
Even if Howard used much from ancients cultures and civilizations, he never made them as if his creations were, say Egyptians or Turks or Mongols or whatever. He took elements from these civilizations to produce his own brandmark (which is pure fiction work). For instance, nothing in Stygia looks like being extracted from the Egyptian culture, excepted the pyramids and other things.
Hyrkanians have something from the Mongols but if you read anything on these folks, you will understand there is no true connection.
You can't compare through this way of evolution. If the Cimmerians descended from the Celts however, it would have been a good job to use this culture to figure them out.
The probability is high that Howard created the Cimmerians from the Cymry, gaellic tribes who lived in Cumbria. There is an excellent description of this race in the Pendragon RPG. By extrapolation, it could be possible that King Arthur belonged to this race.
Moreover don't forget that menhirs and dolmens (stone formations) were in used long before the Celts.
Even if Howard used much from ancients cultures and civilizations, he never made them as if his creations were, say Egyptians or Turks or Mongols or whatever. He took elements from these civilizations to produce his own brandmark (which is pure fiction work). For instance, nothing in Stygia looks like being extracted from the Egyptian culture, excepted the pyramids and other things.
Hyrkanians have something from the Mongols but if you read anything on these folks, you will understand there is no true connection.
The Cimmerians are to the Gaels as all the other Hyborian Age races are to the historical peoples that inspired them and to which they descend: that is, very close in look and feel, but with differences in the details according to the needs of storytelling and the varied geography and history. If they weren't fairly close, it would defeat Howard's purpose in creating this fictional prehistory which could bring together *recognizable* and not purely fantastic settings and cultures.
We see little of non-Turanian Hyrkanians, but it's fair to assume they'd be fairly close to (Howard's) Mongols, since his Turanians are similar to his Turks and Arabs. Or compare Conan of Cimmeria to the Conan of "The People of the Dark".
Some pastiche work sticks too literally to the historical models (especially to post-1930s ideas of those cultures), while some goes too far out on a fantastic limb.
We see little of non-Turanian Hyrkanians, but it's fair to assume they'd be fairly close to (Howard's) Mongols, since his Turanians are similar to his Turks and Arabs. Or compare Conan of Cimmeria to the Conan of "The People of the Dark".
Some pastiche work sticks too literally to the historical models (especially to post-1930s ideas of those cultures), while some goes too far out on a fantastic limb.
Its obviously not that excellent. "Cymry" is the name the Brythonic celts use for themselves, not the Gaelic.
Howard's Hyborian age was largely a way to write premodern adventure stories without having to worry about real history. At least, that's how it started. When one race is an "ancestor" of another, it tends to mean it is the same, but in Howard's view of it and not worrying about actual historical events. Its a pretty smart idea... get all the richness and convincingness of a real historical culture, but shed all the anthropologists and historians who complain when you get details wrong! Genius.
kintire said:
- In REH's Hyborian Age, the Cymry are supposed to be from mixed blood (Cimmerian/Nordic), like a few other people. The Gaels are the only who are supposed to be of pure Cimmerian blood, so they are probably the closest people on real earth to the Cimmerians.
- But I agree with Mr Kintire and Faraer about the way Howard did use real world cultures without being faithful to history or anthropology. Kintire you're right he was a genius ! Faraer, the reason I liked so much the depiction of Cimmerians in JM Roberts Valorous is that he took the real world Celts and then altered them to make them more grim, merciless and less "evolved" in culture: very Howardian IMO.
Willowhugger
Mongoose
I just recently read Conan of Venarium and fundamentally agree that it doesn't present an accurate picture of the Cimmerians. Frankly, the simple fact is that the Cimmerians are too civilized and live in too much of a settled existence to accurately be called Barbarians by any stretch of the imagination.
I recommend reading it though, because it is fun. It's just about a bunch of Poitans who are being conquered by Aquilonians.
While I disagree with Age of Conan on almost everything, I tend to agree that Cimmerians are a scary looking people and even their women should frighten the Hell out of you. They get coolness by proxy for being Conan's people. Conan is exceptional even amongst Cimmerians but they should be tougher by nature simply because they're the Barbarianiest in a world whose innate rules says Barbarians kick ass.
At the very least, they should be as uncivilized as the Wildlings in George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice." They're a crazy people to the North that everyone knows about but no one really understands. They live by their own laws, they live by their own ways, they breed like rabbits, and they kill like madmen.
Harry Turtledove makes one mistake in this otherwise fine piece of Medieval (not Hyborean Age) fiction and that's that he attempts to make us empathize with Conan. Conan and the Cimmerians are not people to be empathized with. They're being to admired and appreciated like wild animals. Turtledove makes Conan a boy hero and that's really something he shouldn't be.
But I do object to the whole idea that Howard meant Cimmeria was meant to be this hugely undetailed mystery. Actually, Howard gives a pretty clear description of the land and its ancestors in his works. It's just Conan never visits there, presumably because a homecoming adventure would lack the "Conan is in a strange land" feel.
The basic facts of Cimmeria are this...
* It's a bleak, harsh, and unrelenting gray land.
* Cimmerians don't sell their children into slavery.
* Everyone works in Cimmeria but takes care of their impoverished.
* The sheer cliffs are tremendous and Cimmerians are good at climbing them.
* Cimmerian women fight along the men.
* Everyone considers Cimmerians ridiculously scary except the Aesir.
* Cimmerians are the most cheerless and grim people imaginable.
I recommend reading it though, because it is fun. It's just about a bunch of Poitans who are being conquered by Aquilonians.
While I disagree with Age of Conan on almost everything, I tend to agree that Cimmerians are a scary looking people and even their women should frighten the Hell out of you. They get coolness by proxy for being Conan's people. Conan is exceptional even amongst Cimmerians but they should be tougher by nature simply because they're the Barbarianiest in a world whose innate rules says Barbarians kick ass.
At the very least, they should be as uncivilized as the Wildlings in George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice." They're a crazy people to the North that everyone knows about but no one really understands. They live by their own laws, they live by their own ways, they breed like rabbits, and they kill like madmen.
Harry Turtledove makes one mistake in this otherwise fine piece of Medieval (not Hyborean Age) fiction and that's that he attempts to make us empathize with Conan. Conan and the Cimmerians are not people to be empathized with. They're being to admired and appreciated like wild animals. Turtledove makes Conan a boy hero and that's really something he shouldn't be.
But I do object to the whole idea that Howard meant Cimmeria was meant to be this hugely undetailed mystery. Actually, Howard gives a pretty clear description of the land and its ancestors in his works. It's just Conan never visits there, presumably because a homecoming adventure would lack the "Conan is in a strange land" feel.
The basic facts of Cimmeria are this...
* It's a bleak, harsh, and unrelenting gray land.
* Cimmerians don't sell their children into slavery.
* Everyone works in Cimmeria but takes care of their impoverished.
* The sheer cliffs are tremendous and Cimmerians are good at climbing them.
* Cimmerian women fight along the men.
* Everyone considers Cimmerians ridiculously scary except the Aesir.
* Cimmerians are the most cheerless and grim people imaginable.
Actually, Howard did write that Conan returned to Cimmeria for a short time after the Rogues in the House adventure. BTW, that is exactly where the Dark Horse Conan comic is at timeline wise. The new Conan comic launching in June will start with Conan's return to Cimmeria - with Richard Cor ben art. 8)
