So far it looks like they should work together, but I'm not exactly sure how they would interact.Corebook 147 said:"All bows are made with a certain ‘pull’. The greater the pull, the more force can be put behind the arrow but the harder the bow is to draw. In game terms, all bows are made with a strength rating. A strength rating is given as the Strength modifier the weapon is ideally suited for and is given in brackets after the bow. For example, a longbow made for a character of Strength 8 to 9 would be written as a ‘longbow (–1)’ whereas a bow made for a character of Strength 16 or 17 would be written as a ‘longbow (+3).’ The strength rating of a bow indicates the maximum amount of additional damage from Strength that can be added to the damage of its arrows. A character shooting a bow always modifies damage and Armour Piercing ratings with the worse of his Strength modifier and the strength rating of the bow. In addition, a character whose Strength modifier is less than the strength rating of the bow has a –2 circumstance penalty on his attack rolls with that bow.
For longbows with strength ratings of +1 or above, the cost to buy the bow is increased by +20 sp for each +1 of the strength rating.
For example, a character of Strength 16 has a Strength bonus of +3. If he were proficient with the longbow, the ideal weapon for him to wield would be a longbow (+3), at a cost of 80 sp. He would deal 1d10+3 damage with this weapon and it would have an Armour Piercing value of 8. If he instead chose a longbow (+2) at a cost of 60 sp, he would only deal 1d10+2 damage (AP 7). If he picked up a longbow (+4), he would still deal only 1d10+3 damage (AP 8) and suffer a –2 penalty on his attack rolls with it.
If, on the other hand, a character with Strength 8 picked up a longbow (+1) he would deal 1d10–1 damage with an Armour Piercing value of 4, and suffer a –2 penalty on his attack rolls with it."
Darkholme said:I'm contemplating using it with a Hyrkanian archer, to get Dex to Damage with my bow. RAW, it looks like it works (Fencer's Finesse requires you neither to be finessing, or to use any particular weapon).
Would my ability to use the bow still be based on my Str? (My gut says yes).
Would Str damage bonus limits apply to my Dex-based archery damage? (My gut says no).
Would my Str or my Dex affect my bow's Armor Piercing? (My gut says Str).
So if I have Str 14, Dex 16, and a Hyrkanian +2 Str Bow;
I *Think* I would have a bow that does would have a +3 to hit from dex, 1d10+3(dex) damage, and AP5. And as I raised my dex, my damage would go up with it.
Do I have that right?
Noted. Campaign is starting at level 3; so that shouldn't be a problem. Aquilonian Fencing is also an option; Zingaran is not the only way to get it.Supplement Four said:First off, know that Hyrkanians are not Hyborians, and thus do not get the Adaptability I mention above. Knowledge-Fencing-Zingaran School would have to be purchased without spending double points by high INT. And, since you need 5 ranks, then you'd need at least an INT 16+ in order to get the skill high enough by 2nd level.
2nd level is the minimum level for a character with 5 ranks in any skill.
True; Zingarans are not going to be Nomads. But there's nothing stopping a Hykanian Nomad from taking some levels in thief (I was thinking 3; but maybe I will take more).Supplement Four said:Plus, the favored class for Hyrkanians is the Nomad, where as the prohibited class for a Zingaran is a Nomad. A Hyrkanian Pirate or Thief would not get the benefits the favored class.
Hmm. Okay, Fair enough, I would be an odd duck if I went Zingaran.Supplement Four said:A Hyrkanian living in Zingara is a very rare thing. Though Zingara is very cosmopolitain, the Hyrkanians tend to stay on their steppes. Even the bonus languages for each race do not match--showing how rarely the two races meet.
I had read that in advance; but aside from some flavor text that suggests that's its primary purpose, nothing in Fencer's finesse (Player's Guide to the Hyborian Age, page 63) actually says I need to be finessing or even using a finessable weapon in order to use it. It just says I apply Dexterity to my damage rather than Strength.Supplement Four said:You probably should also read the last paragraph of the Finesse rules on page 171 of the 2nd Edition Core Rules where it says that Ranged Weapons may never be used for Finesse attacks with the sole exception of the Range Finesse Feat. So, there goes using Fencer's Finesse (which, as I say, is used for melee weapons only).
You seem to be conflating rules with setting here. I can see those being houserules some GMs might make to make the ability more exclusive, but I don't see anything in the feat that backs that up. In the case of my GM, that's out the window from the beginning. He doesn't know much about the hyborian age besides what he's read in my books over the past two weeks; and he's been talking about mixing in elements of Dark Sun. So if he's not going to deliver a faithful Hyborian Age setting, he's also not going to mind using a feat in a way that is less than 100% faithful to the setting.Supplement Four said:Where are you getting that you can use DEX for damage with a bow? Fencer's Finesse is for melee weapons only (and, rightly so, some GMs would restrict the Feat to one-handed Finesse weapons only--but that can be debated). Rightly, the Zingarans favor the broadsword (two handed) and the arming sword (they get a +1 attack racial bonus on those two types of swords), and the Finesse Feat should only apply to those two types of swords.
Yep; Zingarans have good swordplay.Supplement Four said:No matter how you slice it, the Feat was intended for melee weapons only. Read the section on Swordsmanship on page 48 of Argos and Zingara.
I did note that. I would have had to study some swordplay.Supplement Four said:Also note the Knowledge - Fencing - Zingaran School skill. It references swordplay only. There's nothing about archery.
I was unsure whether I wanted to finesse with a Bow, actually. I just saw a Dex-To-Damage feat that seemed a good way to help keep my damage competitive as I leveled up, where having to keep raising str&dex, alternating, would have me lag behind. Once I pick out the things I do, then I tend to come up with a backstory to explain where I picked up those skills. I am aware some people do it in the other order.Supplement Four said:If you want to be able to Finesse attack with a bow, then you need the Feat called Ranged Finesse. But, that's not an easy Feat to get. It requires the Feats Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot (leaving little room at the low levels for the Fencer's Finesse Feat. Your character will most likely be in the mid-levels before he can put all that together.
I considered it. I'd have an extra two feats to work with (an extra 3 for straight-soldier over a nomad/thief multiclass), but my dodge and my skillpoints would be really bad, and I'd have all those formation abilities that don't really fit what I want to do in-game.Supplement Four said:The Soldier class might be useful for all the Feats that is granted.
Yeah; I figured as much. Thanks for the disclaimer, though.Supplement Four said:Special Note: Power Bows still have a STR requirement to use them, even if being used for Finesse attacks. For example, if a Hyrkanian bow is strung for a +3 rating, then the character using the bow must have a STR 16 or greater to use the bow, even if the bow is being used for a Finesse attack.
Otherwise, use a Hunting Bow, as it has no STR requirement.
I wasn't referring to Finesse, however; just the feat, which Mechanically seems to do what I think it does, but thematically you disagree with that. I was only asking about the RAW, however.Supplement Four said:Would my ability to use the bow still be based on my Str? (My gut says yes).
Yes, as stated above. It takes a certain amount of personal strength to pull the string and nock the arrow.
Would Str damage bonus limits apply to my Dex-based archery damage? (My gut says no).
No. But, also note that even in a regular melee Finesse attack, DEX bonus is not applied to Armor Piercing or Damage. A ranged Finesse attack would do the damage of the arrow only (but, if the attack is successful, armor is ignore--see the requirements for a Ranged Finesse Attack under the Ranged Finesse Feat.)
Would my Str or my Dex affect my bow's Armor Piercing? (My gut says Str).
Not for a Finesse Attack--the same as with a melee Finesse Attack.
Supplement Four said:So if I have Str 14, Dex 16, and a Hyrkanian +2 Str Bow;
I *Think* I would have a bow that does would have a +3 to hit from dex, 1d10+3(dex) damage, and AP5. And as I raised my dex, my damage would go up with it.
Do I have that right?
Not quite.
You could use the bow because you have the STR requirement. If attempting a Finesse attack, you would need the Ranged Finesse Feat.
You use DEX bonus on the attack roll. If the Finesse shot is successful, then you would ignore Armor but roll normal, unmodified damage (1d10 for Hyrkanian Bow).
If your shot was good enough to hit but not good enough for Finesse, then you can consider the AP of the bow to see if damage is scored. A Hyrkanian Bow has an AP rating of 3 at Short Range (AP decreases with range). If you pierce, then damage is 1d10 minus half the Armor Value. If you do not pierce, then damage is 1d10 minus full Armor Value.
Darkholme said:But; I'm curious, sine you say you're not just providing how it works at your table, but that it is RAW. Is there actually a part of the rules text in the feat you can point to that explicitly states it only works when finessing, or that it only works when using a weapon that you can finesse with? Is it printed differently in a newer source than the PGttHA?
Darkholme said:I would argue that the description is just that, descriptive flavor text with no bearing on the rules, which are explicitly defined in their own sections; but say I agree with your assertion that that line acts as a limiter on the rules text of the feat (I don't, but for argument's sake);
"You wield a finesse weapon like a scalpel." There's a mention of finesse weapons, but no mention of finesse attacks.
Hmm. Not in my book it isn't. Are you referring to Atlantean edition?Supplement Four said:Check out page 89. There, every part of the Feat listing is explained.
So, going by that; the Benefit is where all of the rules for what the feat allows you to do are contained.Feat Name
(Type of Feat)
Prerequisite: (Describes Prerequisites)
Benefit: "The benefit is what the feat enables the character (‘you’ in the feat description) to do."
Normal: (Describes the situation without the feat)
Special: (Is a mention of special information that may prove useful)
That may well have been the intention, but that is definitely not what is written.Supplement Four said:Thus, I am correct in saying that RAW for the feat, Fencer's Finesse, is that a finesse weapon is used.
I believe it does state the exception clearly, though I am starting to think the author may have meant something closer to your stance and just not stated what he meant explicitly.Supplement Four said:The Feat write ups that contradict established rules do so clearly (as with Improved Unarmed Strike or Improved Feint).
"You use elegance and speed to make exacting, deadly cuts on your opponents." is not a game mechanic. It's descriptive text. It is useful for making a guess at the author's intent, but it is not a game mechanic. The only explicitly mentioned game mechanic in the feat is "Apply your Dexterity modifier to damage, rather than your Strength modifier." There are no explicitly mentioned quantifiers on this. There are a couple options that you could infer from context, but nothing explicitly stated. Even if you assume some of the things you could infer are correct, you have 3 possible interpretations, none of which are explicitly stated. So, going back to the rules text.Benefit: You use elegance and speed to make exacting, deadly cuts on your opponents. Apply your Dexterity modifier to damage, rather than your Strength modifier.
No need to worry there; I'm not getting worked up about this; I've just been trying to avoid any hassles as you seemed to be getting upset.Supplement Four said:I think you might be too close to this. Step back. Take a breath.
Hmm. That does seem to be the trend; in this case the description does not match the printed mechanics. That does seem to point to his intentions, though it still doesn't affect the RAW, just gives you some idea about the RAI.Supplement Four said:I do believe you are wrong in your assumption that the "descriptive flavor text with no bearing on the rules". Look through the chapter on Feats. All of that opening text speaks to the intent of the Feat.
What you describe as the "descriptive flavor" that has no bearing on the rules is, actually, a brief summary of the Feat's function.
This points toward you being at least partially right about what you think the author intended; but this is all situational/circumstantial information that you would have to use to guess what the feat does, rather than explicitly printed mechanics.Supplement Four said:Then, look at it again logically. The brief explanation of the feat describes using a finesse weapon. The name of the Feat is Fencing Finesse. The prerequisite is a Knowledge skill about fencing, not archery. The description says that you use elegance and speed to make exacting, deadly cuts (does that sound like punctures from a bow?). And, the Feat was originated in a book about a people who prize the finesse fighting style (Zingarans) so much that they have established majestic schools for that effort.
This is true. This points to an error; or at least draws attention to the feats vagueness (I would say vagueness is an error as I think game mechanics should be nearly impossible to interpret differently than intended, but YMMV).Supplement Four said:Plus, I can't think of one other Feat that addresses both melee and ranged weapons. The Feats address one or the other, but not both.
True. There's also nothing about requiring you to be finessing, or using a finesse weapon, in the rules text. There is a line that you can assume meaning that is not present in the feat's mechanics, and the book it came from; and you're making further assumption of meaning based on the feat's name, but none of that is actually present in the feat's mechanics.Supplement Four said:This Feat says nothing about using a bow, making a Ranged Attack, breaking the no-finesse attacks for ranged weapons rule, or replacing the Ranged Finesse Feat.
None of that was RAW evidence. It's a lot of circumstantial tangents that hint that you are at least partially correct in what the author intended; but none of which are things explicitly stated about the feat's capabilities in any way.Supplement Four said:That's a lot of RAW evidence that I am correct.
I am interested in hearing what his intention was with the feat. I do think it is very unlikely that his intentions do not match the RAW.Supplement Four said:I can write the author of the Feat if you like. It's been a while, but I've spoken with him several times over e-mail. He may tell us what his intent was with the Feat.
I've got it. I'll go check it out, thanks.Supplement Four said:2nd EDIT: You didn't say if you have the Argos & Zingara book. If you don't, you'll be interested in the write-up on Knowledge-Fencing-Zingaran School. Page 81 of that book. There are several combat maneuvers available at different levels of that skill. The Aquilonian version is listed in the Player's Guide.