[CONAN] Examining the Feint

[Supplement Four]

The Feint is a complicated and interesting combat option.

Let's look at one of the characters from my campaign, Silaigne, attempting the maneuver.

When Silaigne first attempts the maneuver, he gives up an attack, using his Standard action to attempt the Bluff roll for the Feint. If successful, on the following round, the target is considered Flat Footed (cannot Dodge or Parry).

So, basically, if the Feint attempt is successful 100% of the time, then Silaigne gets his number of attacks cut in half, but the other 50% of the time, Silaigne is attacking his target needing only a 10+ on the attack roll to hit.

Is it worth it, giving up half your attacks for such a bonus on your attack? Maybe. It ain't bad.

Now, let's give Silaigne the Improved Feint Feat. What this will do is allow the Feint to happen each round, instead of every other round. Silaigne would no longer have to give up half his attacks.

This almost seems like a game breaker, doesn't it? I mean, successful Feints strip the target of all of his Parry or Dodge defenses. If you get good at the Feint, the character becomes quite formidable in combat.

Is this broken?





What's it cost to be good at the Feint? A high CHR score helps, which means that's a high score that can't be put into DEX or STR (or even CON for extra hit points).

Skill points put into Bluff also help, since the Feint roll is a Bluff roll--but is this a cost? A high Bluff modifier helps the character in obvious ways, and now, this allows the character to bring a high mod skill into combat--I'd call this more of a perk.

In order to get the Improved Feint Feat, the character needs INT 13+ and the Combat Expertise Feat. Depending on how you look at it, that could be a cost because the character is using precious Feat Slots for the requirements.

Rightly, the opposed roll for a Feint to succeed is a Sense Motive check where the target is allowed to apply his BAB to the throw (simulating more experience using their experience in this type of combat matter).



So, is the Feint worth it?

Does Feint have the potential to be a game breaker?

Thoughts?





EDIT: Can the Feint be used to defeat or disregard Total Defense?

 

[LucaCherstich]

I like Feint a lot!
However, given the Conan d20 rules, feinting is useful only for sneak attackers: pirates and thieves.
This sounds bad to me.
However, since I apply my "mastery critical" homerule, feinting (and spending a feat for Improved Feint) becomes valuable for any fighter.
Feint makes "mastery criticals" more frequent, and therefore there's a chance of triggering Massive Damage even if you do not have Sneak Attack or Power Attack...but just pure combat skill!

Mastery criticals are easy:
- an atk roll of 20 pts more than the defence (Dodge or Parry) threatens a critical
- Mastery Critical are always x2 (whatever the original weapon modifier)
- Mastery Criticals CANNOT be added to normal criticals
- If your atk roll threat both normal and Mastery Critical check both...but you can apply only 1 of them

I've discussed it here (but forget the most complicated additions):
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=49288&start=15

 

[Supplement Four]

I like Feint a lot!
However, given the Conan d20 rules, feinting is useful only for sneak attackers: pirates and thieves.

Why would you say that?

If successful with the Feint, then a character is basically robbed of his Parry and Dodge bonuses. The target is considered AC 10. And, with attack modifiers from BAB and STR, that 10+ shouldn't be hard to hit at all.

I can see the feint being especially useful if a combatant is having a hard time punching through his foe's armor.

 

[Supplement Four]

Just out of curiosity, I wanted to run the numbers with my two main PCs from my campaign.

Silaigne, using a hunting spear, attempts to make a feint against Caelis, who uses a targe and a hand axe. Both are 3rd level Barbarians.

Silaigne's Feint: Bluff +0.

Caelis' Opposed Roll: Sense Motive +1; BAB +2

So, Caelis has a +3 advantage against falling for the feint.



But, if successful....

Silaigne rolls d20 + 4 vs AC 10.

This gives Silaigning a +4 advantage to hit using the feint.

Weighing this against Silaigne taking another regular attack....I'd say it's about even.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Silaigne's Feint: Bluff +0.

Caelis' Opposed Roll: Sense Motive +1; BAB +2

So, Caelis has a +3 advantage against falling for the feint.

Core Rules 2e page94:
"To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check"
It does NOT speak of adding the BAB to Sense Motive.
So Caelis has only +1.

Now, let's give Silaigne the Improved Feint Feat. What this will do is allow the Feint to happen each round, instead of every other round. Silaigne would no longer have to give up half his attacks.

This almost seems like a game breaker, doesn't it? I mean, successful Feints strip the target of all of his Parry or Dodge defenses. If you get good at the Feint, the character becomes quite formidable in combat.

Is this broken?

That's not broken to me.
Silagne does not get anything for free.
To get that easy hit roll he must roll the Bluff vs Sense Motive...and not every enemy in the world is a dumb with no Sense Motive ranks! (e.g. the example of city guard in Core Rules 2e page 357 has sense motive +4).
Furthermore nothing is free: in this case the PC has spent 2 feats (Combat Expertise and Improved Feint) to have a good advantage based on his wits and skill (many fighters in many movies feint continuously!).
Silagne is a warrior who based his weapon tactics on quickness, but not everybody is like him.
It's a choice!

Compare that to somebody we could call "Krusk the Barbarian" who made another choice: a completely different approach to Combat and who also spent 2 feats in his combat style.
Krusk has High-Str (18, so +4 dmg) and uses a 2-handed weapon with good damage: a bardiche 1d8+1d10.
Krusk has 2 different feats: Power Attack and Reckless Attack.
Remember Power attack with 2 hands: for every points he subtracts from his Atk roll he gets DOUBLE bonus.
Let's say he subtracts 2 points to Atk to get +4 dmg.
And remember that with 2 handed weapon Str bonus to dmg is x 1.5.
Reckless Attack: Let's say he subtracts 2 points from his defense to get 2 bonus.

So Krusk Damage will be:
+6 (Str) + 4 (Power Atk)+ 2 Reckless + 1d8+1d10...

His attack bonus is not great since he gets a -2 malus to his BAB (he will hit less frequenlty that Silagne) but if he hits, he will deal so much damage to easily trigger a Massive Damage so frequently!
Not the same case with Silagne...even if he hits frequently his chances to trigger the Massive Damage at each round are much lower!

LucaCherstich wrote:
I like Feint a lot!
However, given the Conan d20 rules, feinting is useful only for sneak attackers: pirates and thieves.


Why would you say that?

If successful with the Feint, then a character is basically robbed of his Parry and Dodge bonuses. The target is considered AC 10. And, with attack modifiers from BAB and STR, that 10+ shouldn't be hard to hit at all.

Exactly!
But standard fighters, e.g. your Lev 3 Barbarian, will very rarely deal enough damage with 1 atk to trigger the 20 pts of Massive Damage.
On the other hand, a lev 3 Thief can add +2d8 to that single damage...20 pts of Massive Damage become so near! So they NEED to feint in order to make sneak attacks in the middle of a melee.

 

[Supplement Four]

Silaigne's Feint: Bluff +0.

Caelis' Opposed Roll: Sense Motive +1; BAB +2

So, Caelis has a +3 advantage against falling for the feint.

Core Rules 2e page94:
"To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check"
It does NOT speak of adding the BAB to Sense Motive.
So Caelis has only +1.

??? Core Rules 2E page 94 is about the Climb skill.

On page 93, under the Bluff skill, it does say to add BAB to Sense Motive. "In this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers."

Then again, on page 207, under Feint in the Combat Maneuvers section, it says the same thing.



I thought maybe your wrote "2e" by mistake, meaning really 1E, but I checked 1E, too. According to the Atlantean Edition, page 173, under Feint, BAB is added to the Sense Motive roll.

Then again, on page 80, under the Bluff skill, the same is written.

So, both 1E and 2E say to add BAB to Sense Motive when defending against a Feint.

 

[LucaCherstich]

you are right.
it was page 93 (94 in the pdf).
And you are also right: BAB can be added in target sense motive rolls.

Nevertheless, I still believe in my arguments: Feint is not broken.
The target add its own BAB but not the feinter: this is not an advantage for the feinter!

Actually feiniting is something difficult.

I still believe my "mastery criticals" could improve and spread the use of feint.

 

[Mach5RR]

Can the Feint be used to defeat or disregard Total Defense?

It does not ... sort of. If the defender loses the feint he still loses his parry/dodge portion of defense but still retains the +4 to defense (Making his base defense a 14). But Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Total Defense, being a Bossonian (fighting Defensively), and a Borderer fighting on favored terrain all add strictly to base defense before you add parry or dodge. And a lot of this stuff stacks.

A Bossonian (+2 to defense when fighting defensively/total defense used) 4th level borderer (+2 on first favored terrain) with combat expertise (+5 defense for a -5 to attack) who is fighting defensively can have a defense of 21 before adding dodge or parry. Sure, he'll be at a -9 to attack (-4 for the fighting defensively, and -5 for the combat expertise, but a fairly decent trade if he's about to be shish-kabobed by some shifty Zamorian.

 

[RangerDan]

with combat expertise (+5 defense for a -5 to attack) who is fighting defensively

I was under the impression Combat Expertise and fighting defensively were mutually exclusive, ie that Combat Expertise just means you have a superior version of fighting defensively. Am I wrong on this?

 

[Mach5RR]

with combat expertise (+5 defense for a -5 to attack) who is fighting defensively

I was under the impression Combat Expertise and fighting defensively were mutually exclusive, ie that Combat Expertise just means you have a superior version of fighting defensively. Am I wrong on this?

Hate to say it, but yes you are.

Combat Expertise
(General)
You are an expert at fighting cautiously so as to minimise the risk of being hit.
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack and add the same number (up to +5) to your Defence. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Defence last until your next action.
Special: If you use combat expertise while fighting defensively, the bonuses are cumulative.

The "special" tells you they are cumulative. Now, according to the description of Total Defense at the top of pg 186, it cannot be stacked with Combat Expertise making it the least useful option once you have the feat.

Scott

 

[RangerDan]

The truth about Combat Expertise

Awesome, thanks for the heads up.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Am I misreading the Uncanny Dodge Ability? He can still dodge when caught Flat-Footed, hence I believe he still maintains his dodge Defence, though loses his parry vs a successful Feint attempt?

So Barbarians and Pirates can still dodge vs a successful Feint at 4th lvl or higher!?!

I do not think "uncanny dodge" saves you from Feint.
Core Rules 2e page 43
"From 4th level and above, the barbarian can still use Dodge Defence when caught flat-footed or when struck by an invisible attacker."

IT DOES NOT SPEAK ABOUT FEINT!!

In Hyboria's Fallen, there is also the Greater Feint Feat, Page 70. They need as Prerequisite Int 15, Dex 13, BAB +11, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes and Improved Feint. This seems like to much prerequisites for an ability that allows feint as a Free Action!

It depends on how many Free Actions you allow per round.

Core Rules 2e page 180
"Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. A character can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
However, there are reasonable limits on what one can really do for free."

To me, if somebody has Greater Feint I will allow him to make a free Feint Attempt just before any of the attacks in his own full action.
Otherwise you are right, the feat is too expensive for what it gives.