Conan and Arcana Unearthed

[Arkobla Conn]

It's the narrow, rigid and unbalanced selection of spells I object to. There are two basic types of spells for the unaltered Conan system: cantrips and world threatening rituals.

Raven made my point better than I...

 

[Ajonga]

Smoke and mirrors... it works in the Hyborian age just like it does in our own. Players of scholars must think more creatively than they might otherwise have to in DnD.

I have found Conan to be a much more skill-based system than DnD (which seems to be a very magic-based system). Scholars likewise need to be more skill-based than magic-based than DnD wizard/sorcerers/clerics/druids/paladins/rangers/bards.

My players and I have found that they rely on magic to survive in a DnD campaign, and they rely on skills and tactics to survive in Conan. If the magic system is made more like DnD, the less important skills and feats will become for the scholar. If care is taken, that may not happen. Also, that may be the desired end. Some players want magic to be the deus ex machina of all their problems.

I think the DnD-like atmosphere of Steve Perry's Conan pastiches is what ruins them. Other people liked his pastiches. It is simply a matter of taste. I prefer characters (PC and NPC) to rely on their skills, not their magic - even if they are sorcerers.

I agree that some people might rely on magic to survive, but you are grossly mistaken about skills and tactics :!: Maybe you have not challenged your players or had a GM that expected the same in using magic. Also I never believe magic as "deus ex machina", I view it as a support role just like in the modern army with hi tech weapons. Your battles are won by putting combat troops there not by dropping bombs, however, it nice for the bombs/magic to soften up the ememy and lower his morale. I call that tactics. Your idea that Scholar carry all of that equipment in battle is not possible, he would hire a staff to carry all of that equipment. As stated earlier by Arkobla, I did try to work within the rules of Scholar and found that the spells were vague in what they did. Right now I am playing a Barbarian,however, after reading various threads on this site, I think that playing just a Scholar is unwise. My next character will be multiclassed Scholar. 8)

 

[red_herring]

First off, I'm a big fan of the Conan magic as written. I think it's playable, it stays true to the Howard style and maintains a sense of mystery and awe. The D&D system, on the other hand, is so magic-heavy that spells and items are commonplace and leave no mystery (oh you have a +1 Ring of Protection too).

That said, if you're players are adamant on a more D&D feel, maybe you could just add a few new spells to the Conan game--say Fire Ball or Spiritual Weapon or some Healing spells--anything that'll keep you playing in the Conan setting,

-RH

 

[J-Star]

I agree with Vincent...

I've come to abhor what D&D has become, with every character class except the fighter (always my fave!) relying to some extent on magic spells... and even high-level fighters relying on magic armor, rings, bracers, etc to stay alive.

That's why, despite my severe lack of experience and people to game with, I so deeply love the Conan RPG. Not only is it based on my favorite sword-and-sorcery saga, but it makes characters rely on their mundane skills, like Vincent said, while magic is rare and awe-inspiring.

That being said, I would have liked to see a wider variety of magic in the RPG. "Good" or even "neutral" magic is extremely rare in Howard's stories but it does at least seem to exist... the oracle of Mitra in Black Colossus and the sorcerer who sided with Conan in The Scarlet Citadel come to mind.

Since not even all "official" RPG material is based strictly on Howard, I would like to see at least the potential for "good" sorcerers.

For example, Raven, I would definitely be curious to see what kind of beneficial magic you throw into your campaigns. Might give me some ideas if I ever start a campaign of my own. (Chances are slim and none, but sometimes I use RPG's like Conan and older D&D materials as inspiration for some creative writing)

 

[ahzad]

i agree w/ everything that you said Vincent, that's why i think Conan is the best game out there. i hope this thread doesn't go the "it's broke, it's not broke route" that's not what i started it for, but you can never tell on message boards

let me clarify things i'm not talking of adding D&D's magic system i don't care for it anymore and neither do the players. We prefer Monte's system it's much more flexible, not as powerful and quite simply a more elegant way of doing things. doesn't fit howard, though i've got a few ideas to keep corruption around, but it will make the group happy as a whole and that's what it's about.

i'm also not about adding a boatload of magical items, those will still be very, very, rare. between the masterwork system of grr, and alchemy & herbalist i can create some neat weapons/equip that are nowhere near the realms of traditional d&d, and one shot items that are still very much in the realms of "low" magic fantasy w/o losing the conan feel.

that way there's a bit more of a chance they last 1 more round w/ that nasty lovecraftian monster before they die :evil: why is it the cthulhu mythos always finds it way into my games? gotta to love that.

Raven: I've enjoyed the cthulhu thread quite a bit.

so those familiar w/ AU's system: would you add whole scale or just dribs and drabs?

my instinct is to go dribs and drabs. maybe start w/ just the rune magic and the rites that would limit your classes to import. and the concepts of runes and little rituals before battle doesn't stray to much from the setting.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I agree that some people might rely on magic to survive, but you are grossly mistaken about skills and tactics

That is just from my experience. Once characters in my DnD campaigns hit a certain level (and not even all that high), and having kept to the limits of magic items suggested, the characters stopped bothering to make many skill checks. Instead, they used magic for the encounter.

I think I simply stated my case poorly. I meant skills AND tactics. Both at the same time. My mid- to high-level campaigns dealt with magic AND tactics. I prefer Conan because my players now use their personal skills in a tactical manner instead of figuring out how to use their magic in a tactical manner. They were still challenged and were often forced to use their magic in new and creative ways - but I got sick of the constant reliance on magic. It got to the point where ability scores did not matter - everyone had spells to boost their scores if needed anyway.

In one campaign I put the DnD characters in a situation where they could not use their magic - and none of them quite knew what to do.

No one in my Conan campaign relies on magic. They rely on their personal skills, abilities and prowess. I like that. They have a sword and their skills. They have to find a way to succeed with those basic tools - regardless of their level. I like that.

 

[sanseveria]

This is a great thread!!!

Only if I get to watch the Desert Shem tribes kill them all horribly.....

I like your style !!!

I guess the gripe I had was the use of the word "Broken". A rule can't be broken if it only seems so to half the population.

However, as is often the case, sometimes (most of the time actually) rules don't appeal to everyone. That's the beauty of it, there's no right way or wrong way of playing the game. (unless you find yourself beating one of your players over the head with your atlantean edition, as that could be referred to as the wrong way)

I think maybe one thing that people overlook is this: is the spell selection limited? Maybe so. Maybe the solution is to have your scholar players research their own spells. Let them do the legwork, then at the end, attach the PP cost.

One thing I like "is" the limited spell selection, it forces me to create my own magical effects to confuse the players. I also let them research new effects, using skills and magic combined. (sort of similar to what Vincent mentioned.)

SS

 

[Bjorn the Barbarian]

ahzad,

You might try the magic system from Grim Tales by Bad Axe Games, I think it was Old Bear that suggested this awhile back. It seems to give more spell flexibility, but keeps the risk/danger of corruption.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

I remember that adventure Vince. I also remember all of us sifting through all of our abilities, trying to find out what we can and what we could not do.

And on a side note:


Ugh, my month vacation has gotten me fiending for more Conan.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I agree with Vincent...

That being said, I would have liked to see a wider variety of magic in the RPG. "Good" or even "neutral" magic is extremely rare in Howard's stories but it does at least seem to exist... the oracle of Mitra in Black Colossus and the sorcerer who sided with Conan in The Scarlet Citadel come to mind.

Since not even all "official" RPG material is based strictly on Howard, I would like to see at least the potential for "good" sorcerers.

The potential is already in the rules. On page 162 of Aquilonia - Flower of the West, a Mitran oracle is presented. On page 185, Zelata (the witch who helped Conan in The Hour of the Dragon) is presented. On page 89, Dexitheus, Archpriest of Mitra is presented. All three characters use the core set of rules.

Also, on page 71 of Across the Thunder River, Diviatix the White Druid of Nuadwyddon is presented. Another good guy.

Hadrathus appears on page 109 of The Scrolls of Skelos. Another good guy.

I am not sure what the complaint is about the "alignment" of spells in Conan the Roleplaying Game. Not that many spells actually cause corruption.

 

[bushidokid]

I've been a big fan of AU since it was released and a big fan of the magic system first and foremost. I think that Conan's current magic system is about as good as you're going to get for capturing the feel, and effects of magic in the setting as described by Howard. However if you’re interested in changing some stuff up, or perhaps using Conan as a basis for another Sword and Sorcery setting *cough* Elric *cough*, the AU magic system would be a good place to start. For starter's I'd leave the scholar class intact, so sorcerers have a hugely limited umber of spells, like maybe 25-28 total plus any feats you take. This forces them to rely on their skills a little more and not just whip out a spell for every situation. Secondly I'd make the spells have a pp cost like so
0-1pp
1-2pp
2-4pp
3-9pp
4-16pp
5-25pp
6-36pp
7-49pp
8-64pp
9-81pp

This probably makes the higher levels spells almost impossible to cast, which is fine, also I'd apply the "Mighty Spell" rule to anything 6th lvl and up. Lastly I'd be real careful which spells on the list I'd let them have. For example, I'd excise any sort of healing spells from the lists, and I'd have to think long and hard about including any of the direct damage spells, as well as just what spells feats like opportunistic sacrifice worked with. Just my two sense.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

I have a Khitan Scholar in my group being played by a players :wink: that really likes magic in D&D, thankfully she really loves Conan and has so far gone along with her character abilities. She really loves the skill points that the Scholar gets and she kicks ass with her war spear. She complaines about how terrible the magic is in Conan but she accepts it because its Conan and she has alot of respect for the character and the setting.

Besides IIRC the only real corrupting magic are the summoning and necromatic variety. She uses the Oriental sorcery and nature magic. No a problem.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

This is a great thread!!!

Only if I get to watch the Desert Shem tribes kill them all horribly.....

I like your style !!!

One of the reason I am enthuastic about the Conan system and the Hyborian world is that there isn't a hint of Tolkien elitism. Y'know the elves and dwarves looking down on everyone and humans and hobbits getting miffed about it. Also that it reminds you the sheer diversity to the concept of _humanity_ lost to us insular Westerners. We have the _youngest_ culture out there people- millions of years of history surround us though most of us are far too self-focused to notice.

Me- now I get to use all that myth and history I studied and my experiences as a world traveller. Right now, my party is in a major fight on the shores of the Pict Wilderness than resembles the Newfoundland coast a great deal. 8)

I guess the gripe I had was the use of the word "Broken". A rule can't be broken if it only seems so to half the population.

Agreed. It was a poor choice of a word, but I was rushed, tired and running out of time so I reverted to a cliche. I am using 80% of the system 'as is' so it is hardly broken. Just frustrated that there is so much potential that is limited by Mongoose's need to 'keep it Howardian'. I can see why obviously it has to be done- it is Conan. I just don't want to censured for stretching the borders a bit.

On the other hand, I seem to have sparked a lot of debate with my incinerary remarks. Seems like there must have been a lot of deadwood below the surface of things, waiting to kindle.

To tell you the truth, I am more in love with Hyboria than Conan himself. He was always too much a muscle bound jock who sees us females as expendable luxuries as opposed to people. That and the anti-higher learning thing. Plus the nearly total amorality. He's not evil mind you, but he's not my idea of a good date or a good leader. Reminds me of a ex-special forces Major I have to work with. He's the star and we're the audience, or we're **** bags. He got kicked out of the warehouse I work in because he kept trying to initate 'alpha-male' fights with the other male workers.

I think maybe one thing that people overlook is this: is the spell selection limited? Maybe so. Maybe the solution is to have your scholar players research their own spells. Let them do the legwork, then at the end, attach the PP cost.

Been doing so. Is there an objection to me posting a few of new spells on a new thread? [With my usual copyright of course- contact me before your publish them for money or get cursed in RL]

Magic is such a lovely thing. 8)

Raven, who bends and breaks rules for fun

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I am not sure what the complaint is about the "alignment" of spells in Conan the Roleplaying Game. Not that many spells actually cause corruption.

IMHO, the more powerful spells tend to be the most 'morally challenging', so to speak.

It's not the 'alignment' that bothers me but the relative power level of the spells. There seems to be a lack of mid power spells. Basic spells: summon a wolf or viper, protect yourself from other's magic, make a corpse walk for a few minutes. Advanced Spells: rip out someone's still beating heart, summon a elemental to destroy and entire valley, wipe out and entire army of city with plague.

You'd think there's be a few spells somewhere between these points. 8)

Raven, who has players planning to try to learn 'Draw Forth the Heart'- though one person wants to try and start taking brains instead.....

 

[Raven Blackwell]

i agree w/ everything that you said Vincent, that's why i think Conan is the best game out there. i hope this thread doesn't go the "it's broke, it's not broke route" that's not what i started it for, but you can never tell on message boards

My guess is you found the game's most contriversal point: Sorcery. Howard, a man of his time, really didn't like magic. So [nearly] all magic bad, muscle good. So thus lies Hyboria's lack IMHO: magical prejudice. 8)

let me clarify things i'm not talking of adding D&D's magic system i don't care for it anymore and neither do the players.

Blech! Not fond of it myself. Video game magic.

i'm also not about adding a boatload of magical items, those will still be very, very, rare.

I've added one (1) magic item, a sword from ancient Atlantis found on the bottom of the ocean. However, the scholar/soldier using it doesn't know a single thing about and is forced to discover its properties by trial and error.

between the masterwork system of grr, and alchemy & herbalist i can create some neat weapons/equip that are nowhere near the realms of traditional d&d, and one shot items that are still very much in the realms of "low" magic fantasy w/o losing the conan feel.

Herbalism plays a big part in my campaign, oddly enough. Upas Juice, as an anti-sorcerous venom, is a comon desire for the players who like it for it's ability to greatly enhance the strength of fiberous materials. I do not require the fiber's origin to as morbid as a certain Zamoran thief did though. Hemp rope works fine, although they are thinking of trying a spider silk rope, or even a creating a spider silk webbing with the juice that would be usable as light armor.

It's even a great RP oppurtunity for 'alternate' treasures. A Byruthiam witch discovered a rare cold-dwelling variant of Yellow Lotus in the Border Kingdoms and is now debating what to do about it. She could sell it wholesale, but as a priestess of the Earth Mother, that would be dishonourable. If another scholar finds out, they'd raze the place instead. At the moment, she's just harvested a small amount for her own use, but if she choose to sell it, another scholar may try and find her source.

Also, I have been adding real life herbs and their properties: Blood Moss [for bandaging], Wild Garlic [disinfectant- am I the only GM who secretly makes a Fortitude test for possible infection after every battle? Infection kills more people than actual blood loss in primitive times :twisted:], Valerian [healing herb] and others as I find them in my library's reference material.

Raven: I've enjoyed the cthulhu thread quite a bit.

Thank you. 8)

so those familiar w/ AU's system: would you add whole scale or just dribs and drabs?

my instinct is to go dribs and drabs. maybe start w/ just the rune magic and the rites that would limit your classes to import. and the concepts of runes and little rituals before battle doesn't stray to much from the setting.

My instinct too- it seems to work and having to learn the new rules as they go along is both a challenge and a pleasure to the players.

Raven, who understands we all need a little challenge

 

[Raven Blackwell]

For example, Raven, I would definitely be curious to see what kind of beneficial magic you throw into your campaigns. Might give me some ideas if I ever start a campaign of my own. (Chances are slim and none, but sometimes I use RPG's like Conan and older D&D materials as inspiration for some creative writing)

Let me write something up- too much to put in a post now, okay?

Raven, who likes an audience 8)

 

[J-Star]

I agree with Vincent...

That being said, I would have liked to see a wider variety of magic in the RPG. "Good" or even "neutral" magic is extremely rare in Howard's stories but it does at least seem to exist... the oracle of Mitra in Black Colossus and the sorcerer who sided with Conan in The Scarlet Citadel come to mind.

Since not even all "official" RPG material is based strictly on Howard, I would like to see at least the potential for "good" sorcerers.

The potential is already in the rules. On page 162 of Aquilonia - Flower of the West, a Mitran oracle is presented. On page 185, Zelata (the witch who helped Conan in The Hour of the Dragon) is presented. On page 89, Dexitheus, Archpriest of Mitra is presented. All three characters use the core set of rules.

I saw the oracle's entry, and I remember seeing Zelata's name... I'm not sure if saw the entry on Dexitheus. I been so busy I haven't been able to read the book all the way through.

Also, on page 71 of Across the Thunder River, Diviatix the White Druid of Nuadwyddon is presented. Another good guy.

I've only had time to skim through this book... that name sounds vaguely familiar.

Hadrathus appears on page 109 of The Scrolls of Skelos. Another good guy.

Also sounds vaguely familiar... haven't picked that book up in a while.

I am not sure what the complaint is about the "alignment" of spells in Conan the Roleplaying Game. Not that many spells actually cause corruption.

I'll admit I haven't counted spells that cause corruption vs spells that don't, but "alignment" of spells wasn't really what I referring to. More like a wider variety of potentially beneficial spells, including spells usable by priests of Mitra and similar spells. The last thing I want to see is walking medicine cabinet characters like D&D clerics, but I wouldn't mind seeing some forms of healing magic other than the Golden Wine of Xuthal and the 1 or 2 other types in the Scrolls of Skelos.

Sean A. Moore wrote some pretty entertaining pastiches... one of which featured a Mitran healer that was way too close to a D&D cleric! He basically kept casting CURE LIGHT WOUNDS and LIGHT!

But something somewhere between that extreme and pure Robert E. Howard, I wouldn't mind seeing.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Oh, and Vincent, we did try the original Conan magic system 'as is', which is where my players started running into problems with its inflexibility. For example, I had a female Khitan scholar that liked turning men into obdient snake-men (Awful Rite of the Were-Beast) but really didn't get to do much else.... The changes I made after we ended the first campaign is where my alternate system started arising.

Raven

 

[Arkobla Conn]

No one in my Conan campaign relies on magic. They rely on their personal skills, abilities and prowess. I like that. They have a sword and their skills. They have to find a way to succeed with those basic tools - regardless of their level. I like that.

The same is true with our group....now. but we tried and didn't succeed so well from the scholar standpoint. But there is NO magic items, no spells, no magical healing and we are doing fine. I just wish the magic system made more SENSE. It's even hard to create scholar NPC's.

Mind you, I've been role-playing since the 70's. I've read more systems than I can count. I was a huge favoriate of the Ars Magica system... Sorry, this one just has .. gaps.. that I can't seem to explain.

As an aside, my group is doing a DnD campaign for awhile. One of the players is a huge drow fan, so I'm running City of the Spider Queen. It's 10th level and magic heavy...and they are wowed by the difference. It is like night and day, these games.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

I think maybe one thing that people overlook is this: is the spell selection limited? Maybe so. Maybe the solution is to have your scholar players research their own spells. Let them do the legwork, then at the end, attach the PP cost.

One thing I like "is" the limited spell selection, it forces me to create my own magical effects to confuse the players. I also let them research new effects, using skills and magic combined. (sort of similar to what Vincent mentioned.)

SS

This just doesn't cut it for us. I'm the only one who OWNS the rules! I buy all the books (giving me a pocket version and the original to go with the atlantean) but you are talking about people with wives, children and full time jobs. I want a game that is complete. Sure, it should be flexible enough to allow you to do this, and then you get a flavor we won't get, but I need the game to be playable at all levels.

I very much agree that MOST of the campaign is magic shy, but if a player wants to use magic, then it's my job as the GM to create situations where it becomes logical to the story. (heck, why do any group of 5 people roam together for a long period in Conan's world??) The system should 'limit'...the story should.