Conan and Arcana Unearthed

[ahzad]

Let me first say I love my Conan as is and would prefer to play it that way, but the players are another story they love everything but the magic system. So I was think of maybe combining another magic system w/ Conan so I won't have to hear the grumbling about the magic. It would push my campaign into the higher-end of the fantasy compared to most Conan games, but I can live w/ that.

I've looked at a couple of different choices and I keep coming back to Monte Cook's system from Arcana Unearthed. It's hands down my favorite system of RPG magic, and it's not nearly as powerful as the traditional D&D system, at least I think so. I'm looking for some advice, thoughts, or ideas on how to integrate the system into Conan.

Here's a couple of things I thought of right off the bat:
1. need to take a feat to be able to class into any of the spell casting classes from AU, call it a magic talent feat or whatever. I considered making it a 1st-level only feat, and possible disallowing any multi-classing into the Conan classes. This would help keep choosing the magic weilding character a difficult choice b/c you lock yourself into that role, and only the most die-hard of the spell slingers player types would go for it, keeping your magic users uncommon to rare.
2. the spell casting classes from AU don't get the overall ability bump that the Conan classes get, the price of magic.

As for magical items I still plan to keep them relatively rare, importing in the Black Company's masterwork system for items that are a notch above the norm., that'll keep the players happy item-wise and still keep the magic level below the standard campaign I think.

I would prefer to keep straight Conan, but there aren't enough players floating about to put together a new group, and I really wouldn't want to b/c I've known most of the guys and girls for a few decades now. So playing w/ a new group really isn't an option.

Like I said I just started to think about it, and thought I jot out a quick post while it fresh in my mind. Our Spycraft gaming is at an end and I really want to play w/ Mongoose's toys, or at least most of them.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I would prefer to keep straight Conan, but there aren't enough players floating about to put together a new group, and I really wouldn't want to b/c I've known most of the guys and girls for a few decades now. So playing w/ a new group really isn't an option.

They aren't even willing to try it without tinkering with the magic system? Have they read Howard?

That sounds to me like, "Sure, I'd love to play Judge Dredd, but only if I can be an Elvish druid." They just don't want to try anything new.

 

[René]

Hi, ahzad, this a little bit off-topic, but could the weapon qualities from Black Company be useful for a kind of stone age weapons? I'm asking for use in CONAN and DARK SUN.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

They aren't even willing to try it without tinkering with the magic system? Have they read Howard?

Sorry, I'm with the old style Gygax way of doing things- 'the rules are only guidelines. Feel free to change, modify or eliminate what doesn't work'. IMHO the sorcery system is broken, so I rewrote it for my players- but I do this for almost all my games. I keep no shrine to Howard in my apartment- if something could be changed to make the story and system better but isn't 'pure' Howard then the story's need wins. After all, as it says in the Amber RPG sourcebook, perhaps the story's 'chronicler' got a few things wrong without knowing it.

Raven, who doesn't believe in slavish obedience to anyone's rules....

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Check out the Complete Arcane by WOTC. It has a new class varient that basically calls forth magical energy. All of the abilities help 'shape' the energy. I'll have to go back to the book to remember the class and write it up, but it definately can be considered as a substitute for the 'aggressive' sorceror.

Apologies to Vincent and Mongoose, but I believe the sorcery is not playable by players as well. It's too vague / weak at the low levels and too difficult to grow/execute at higher levels.

It has the FLAVOR of Conan, but it's too difficult to use as a game...in my humble opinion...

 

[VincentDarlage]

I am not advocationg not changing it; I am advocating trying it before changing it. It sounded to me that his players would not even give it a one-game shot.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Apologies to Vincent and Mongoose, but I believe the sorcery is not playable by players as well. It's too vague / weak at the low levels and too difficult to grow/execute at higher levels.

It has the FLAVOR of Conan, but it's too difficult to use as a game...in my humble opinion...

I think that is where the magic system shines. One, it discourages players from playing sorcerers - thus making the game very different from DnD. Two, it forces those who choose that route to think creatively - suddenly the sorcererous player must learn to use skills and alchemy to emulate magic, using the real power for important and major goals. There is not a spell to do everything, but the character must try to make those around him think that there is.

 

[Faraer]

I'm sorry you have such closed-minded players, ahzad.

Yet again that awful melodramatic cant word 'broken' being used to mean 'I don't like it'. If it works in more than a handful of people's campaigns, it cannot be 'broken'. Similarly, Arkobla, if anyone uses something in a game, it isn't too difficult to use in a game. It probably is, though, too difficult to use in a game played in the style of D&D.

Personally, I'd be very reluctant to allow PC sorcerers at all.

 

[ahzad]

I am not advocationg not changing it; I am advocating trying it before changing it. It sounded to me that his players would not even give it a one-game shot.

no they gave it a couple of 1 off games they really liked the classes, and combat, but the magic left them flat. i liked it but i'm just one voice out of the group, so i told them i'd work on adding Monte's system so they could have some sort of magic if they wished.

 

[VincentDarlage]

That is a shame that DnD has made them so magic-dependent. If they tried it, then I have no complaint. I do think that barbarians, borderers and nomads are the heart and soul of the Conan game.

 

[ahzad]

I'm sorry you have such closed-minded players, ahzad.

Yet again that awful melodramatic cant word 'broken' being used to mean 'I don't like it'. If it works in more than a handful of people's campaigns, it cannot be 'broken'. Similarly, Arkobla, if anyone uses something in a game, it isn't too difficult to use in a game. It probably is, though, too difficult to use in a game played in the style of D&D.

Personally, I'd be very reluctant to allow PC sorcerers at all.

i'm going to have to defend them here. they aren't close-minded we've played lots of different things over the years and they'll try anything at least a few times. they tried it and the majority of them decided they would like to play conan but w/ a different magic system. they realize that it may not fit howard's view perfectly but really like the world and system overall and would like to run a campaign set in it. and my games aren't a dictatorship (though sometimes they swear differently :twisted: mostly when they've made a couple of mistakes in a row) , we've been playing for an awfully long time together and we compromise to make the game fun for everyone. as Raven said "Sorry, I'm with the old style Gygax way of doing things- 'the rules are only guidelines. Feel free to change, modify or eliminate what doesn't work'" that's they way we play as well. it's more important for us to have fun then slavishly follow a rule system.

 

[ahzad]

Hi, ahzad, this a little bit off-topic, but could the weapon qualities from Black Company be useful for a kind of stone age weapons? I'm asking for use in CONAN and DARK SUN.

yea i could see using it w/ stone age weapons, i think there's another post around here where i was talking about it and gave a few examples. i'll see if i can find it for you when i get home from work tonite.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Apologies to Vincent and Mongoose, but I believe the sorcery is not playable by players as well. It's too vague / weak at the low levels and too difficult to grow/execute at higher levels.

It has the FLAVOR of Conan, but it's too difficult to use as a game...in my humble opinion...

I think that is where the magic system shines. One, it discourages players from playing sorcerers - thus making the game very different from DnD. Two, it forces those who choose that route to think creatively - suddenly the sorcererous player must learn to use skills and alchemy to emulate magic, using the real power for important and major goals. There is not a spell to do everything, but the character must try to make those around him think that there is.

Vincent ... it does do this...I'm thinking about playablity and 'GMability.' I found many of this stuff hard to judge fairly for the guy who wanted to play a scholar. He understood he had a learning curve, but there were just so many challenges, he eventurally abandoned the idea of playing one. Honestly, I shy away from playing them as NPC's as well because of the GMability...if you know what I mean.

 

[sanseveria]

I DM a fairly large group of players, and we're currently on our second lenghty campaign. So far we've always had at least one scholar in the party. Sometimes we've had 2. :shock: (I keep hoping on the inside that they'll make something else, but if that's what they want to play, then all the power points to them.) They learned the hard truth about the life span of the scholar :twisted: , but they keep coming back for more.

I explained to my players right off the bat that it wasn't DnD. They know they ain't wizards and sorcerers s :shock: so they've come to rely on skills and feats, alchemy in particular. My group roll plays more than it role plays to boot, and so far the scholar playing guys have had allot of fun. Hell, the current scholar is a Nordemeir scholar weilding a great axe, :shock: :evil: so he ain't useless either.

I respect the fact that some would rather not have scholars as players, I also respect the fact that some DMs want to or have changed the magic system and if it has enhanced or improved your game, then that's great, after all it's the important thing right?

However, I don't understand how some people say the magic system is broken, or it doesn't work. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work. To my group it works fine, it captures the feel we want, (and frankly, whether or not it's the howard feel is somewhat irrelevant, although I hope we do capture it) It has worked well from a player and a DM's point of view.

What's next, halflings and gnomes in the plains of western Shem??? :wink:

I don't think So !!!

Thanks,
SS

 

[Arkobla Conn]

However, I don't understand how some people say the magic system is broken, or it doesn't work. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

I'll admit, maybe we are just so 'd&dized' that we don't know how to use this class appropriately... Some theory education might be helpful

 

[VincentDarlage]

Sounds like it is a case of those who say it cannot be used needing to get out of the way of those who are using it.

Skills, feats and alchemy are the trick for the successful scholar. A bit of Escape Artist, and a scholar has "magically" escaped his bonds. Some Sleight-of-Hand and the scholar has "magically" transported something from your person to his. Heck, flame-powder is not that difficult to create, requiring 50 sp, 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) and a Craft check of DC 15 - a bit of effort, and there is the sorcerer's "fireball." A puff of smoke, a Hide check and maybe Escape Artist, the sorcerer has just "teleported" to safety (he is in that barrel over there, but everyone knows he is a sorcerer, so they give up the chase).

Smoke and mirrors... it works in the Hyborian age just like it does in our own. Players of scholars must think more creatively than they might otherwise have to in DnD.

I have found Conan to be a much more skill-based system than DnD (which seems to be a very magic-based system). Scholars likewise need to be more skill-based than magic-based than DnD wizard/sorcerers/clerics/druids/paladins/rangers/bards.

My players and I have found that they rely on magic to survive in a DnD campaign, and they rely on skills and tactics to survive in Conan. If the magic system is made more like DnD, the less important skills and feats will become for the scholar. If care is taken, that may not happen. Also, that may be the desired end. Some players want magic to be the deus ex machina of all their problems.

I think the DnD-like atmosphere of Steve Perry's Conan pastiches is what ruins them. Other people liked his pastiches. It is simply a matter of taste. I prefer characters (PC and NPC) to rely on their skills, not their magic - even if they are sorcerers.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Thanks Vincent...time to digest and reassess a bit

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I'm sorry you have such closed-minded players, ahzad.

How does having a preference make you 'close-minded'? If they don't want to do it, they don't want to do it. What are they- fellow participants or victims of their GM's delusions of granduer. A good GM works with their players to find a system balance that works- for example I stopped using pure Call of Cthulhu because it bored my players. Now that doesn't stop me from stripping the sourcebook bare for magical tomes and supernatural baddies to torment my players. [See 'Conan and Cthulhu' for my take on that]

Yet again that awful melodramatic cant word 'broken' being used to mean 'I don't like it'. If it works in more than a handful of people's campaigns, it cannot be 'broken'. Similarly, Arkobla, if anyone uses something in a game, it isn't too difficult to use in a game. It probably is, though, too difficult to use in a game played in the style of D&D.

My, what a powerful psychic you must be to read my mind and tell me what I meant by 'broken'. For your further education, let me point out I like the system of magic attack values, Power Point and War of Souls quite well. It's the narrow, rigid and unbalanced selection of spells I object to. There are two basic types of spells for the unaltered Conan system: cantrips and world threatening rituals. Now yes, this is Howardian, but if there's one thing Howard wasn't it's balanced. I expanded the schools/Spheres of magic, threw in some actual magical theory and padded out the spell lists with middle of the road spells. And before anyone starts screaming 'It's not Howard!' let me tell you if you think I am going to jettison 19 [I think] years of gaming experience in expanding and improving my game world because some long dead Texan who killed himself at age 30 because he couldn't face life without his mother might not have thought of doing it himself, you're crazier than he was. [Blasphemy!] I'm an equal oppurtunity plunderer for systems, plotline, NPCs and plotlines. [As an example, my basic magic system started forming in my West End 2nd edition Staw Wars campaign 8)] No complaints from my players- in fact they can't eat it up fast enough, which is the only measure of success for a GM.

Personally, I'd be very reluctant to allow PC sorcerers at all.

Got two and there's a third on the way. [Since the GMs a practioner of magic, my guess is that it is inevitable that magic would take part in the game] My players are modest with their use of magic and since I can and will hurt them for their stupdiity they're careful. Besides it opens up yet another level of complications. Also, by altering the world from baseline Howard, you can surprise your literate players. They're discovering that my version of Messantia has a goevrnment that makes secret use of non-corrupt (hopefully) sorcery to keep a competiative edge against Zingara and Stygia threw them briefly for a loop. [That was before Messantia came out and told of the King's Agents of which two are sorcerers. I had it a little more widespread- at least one Admiral was a powerful sorcerer/pirate]

So, the results of this debate aside, I will do as I desire despite what the RPGPC police decide. Life is an experiment- otherwise why bother living at all.

Raven, who doesn't like it when people put words in her mouth.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Skills, feats and alchemy are the trick for the successful scholar. A bit of Escape Artist, and a scholar has "magically" escaped his bonds. Some Sleight-of-Hand and the scholar has "magically" transported something from your person to his. Heck, flame-powder is not that difficult to create, requiring 50 sp, 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) and a Craft check of DC 15 - a bit of effort, and there is the sorcerer's "fireball." A puff of smoke, a Hide check and maybe Escape Artist, the sorcerer has just "teleported" to safety (he is in that barrel over there, but everyone knows he is a sorcerer, so they give up the chase).

Excellent case Vincent- in fact that's a great way to get a baddie to safety and then watch the players smack themselves later for being so stupid to buy it.

Smoke and mirrors... it works in the Hyborian age just like it does in our own. Players of scholars must think more creatively than they might otherwise have to in DnD.

Well, I know my villians and neutrals think creatively- so the players are forced to compete to stay alive. 8)

I have found Conan to be a much more skill-based system than DnD (which seems to be a very magic-based system). Scholars likewise need to be more skill-based than magic-based than DnD wizard/sorcerers/clerics/druids/paladins/rangers/bards.

Ditto.

My players and I have found that they rely on magic to survive in a DnD campaign, and they rely on skills and tactics to survive in Conan. If the magic system is made more like DnD, the less important skills and feats will become for the scholar. If care is taken, that may not happen. Also, that may be the desired end. Some players want magic to be the deus ex machina of all their problems.

Actually, by relying on sorcery a little too much, my players got themselves in trouble. Seems their PP for a Breath of Water spell stated running out 1800' under the surface of the ocean. One of my player is going to take the Water Snake Feat out of sense of paranoia. Moving at half-speed toward the surface took so much time it nearly killed him. :twisted:

I think the DnD-like atmosphere of Steve Perry's Conan pastiches is what ruins them. Other people liked his pastiches. It is simply a matter of taste. I prefer characters (PC and NPC) to rely on their skills, not their magic - even if they are sorcerers.

Like I said before- every sorcerer in my campaign has found it a good idea to pick up a level or two of a more martial class to stay alive.

Raven, picking the weak out of the pack...

 

[Raven Blackwell]

What's next, halflings and gnomes in the plains of western Shem??? :wink:

Only if I get to watch the Desert Shem tribes kill them all horribly.....

As for what I meant by 'broken', let me put it this way. As written, sorcery is more of a problem than an asset to a PC scholar. After all, most of what he can do is evil and corruptive and it takes a lot of effort to learn. So I throw in beneficial and neutral magic for the mix. Now, no one could ever publish that sort of thing as their bound to the fan's expectations of what Conan is, but I am not not so bound. Eventually by sheer act fo change, it'll change from someone else's world to mine, but that's not a venial sin in my mind. That is after all what creativity is about- starting where others begin and moving onward. Well, that and those childish ego driven fantasies we create to escape the mundane world, but 'nuff said.

Raven, laughing