Common Magic Spell Questions
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Loz
Mongoose
Denalor said:Can we therefore assume that any common magic spell that is not specifically listed should be put to "All" ?
I'm looking at Countermagic Shield, you see
Its purely down to your campaign. However, whereas Boon of Lasting Night has a wide basis, hence its 'All', Countermagic Shield is a bit more specialised and may only be taught by certain cults.
I know this thread is a month old, but I've just read through the Common Magic rules, hit on some of the same issues raised in this thread, and have a few relevant comments and suggestions.
From even a very careful straight reading, it does appear that fate is overpowered compared to Armoursmith's Boon, Bandit's Cloak, Bearing Witness, Entertainer's Smile, Goldent Tongue and possibly others. Fate is clearly far superior to any of them by a very large margin. I can see several feasible fixes that might introduce some of checks and balances. 1) Make Fate a 3 point spell that gives a fixed +/- %20. 2) Make it a +/- 5% per point. 3) leave as-is but the opposite modifier is applied to the caster's next skill check, or the skill check after that if the caster is the target.
Bladesharp not limited to 4 points? Ok, safety catches are now firmly off in this edition of Runequest. As we will see, this is a recurring theme.
Speedart is now crap in most common combat situations because being one-shot only you get so little bang for buck compared to Bladesharp. The exception is for sniping against unprepared targets, in which case it's massively overpowered (Speedart 6 anyone?). Runequest snipers just got handed the equivalent of a Barrett Light 50. The way it worked in the old days meant it gave good bang for buck, but could not be abused because it was a fixed-return spell.
Love Hand of Death. Great for sinister martial artists.
Disruption is progressive? Nasty. Interesting. As I said, safeties off. Bladesharp is no longer a handy occasional zap spell, but is a souped-up magic hand-grenade. I'd make Disruption Resist (Persistence) because it's a purely magical attack, and it would introduce an interesting dynamic between this, Frostbite and Skybolt which is already Resist (Evade).
Frostbite seems pretty nasty too. Definitely hand-grenade territory. I'd keep Frostbite Resist (Resilience) as you're resisting a physical effect, see Disruption above.
The only Common Magic spell that helps defend against spirits is Spirit Bane, and it's of very limited utility. Having at least one decent spell to help defend in spirit combat or protect against being discorporated would be a big help. I haven't read the spirit magic rules in depth yet, but I'm concerned that most typical parties are just going to get blatted by even moderately organised spirit magicians. More on that in an appropriate thread when I have read those rules more completely.
The old RQ3 versions of most of these spells were better thought out and less game breaking. The fact that character's don't have General Hit Points nowadays I suppose makes them more resilient to multi-location damaging spells, but still...
In some ways this edition of RQ has a crazy, no-holds-barred, daring edge to it that is attractive. It does remind me of the old RQ2 in this respect. RQ3 was much more constrained and balanced, but actually not quite as much fun. It'll be interesting to see how this edition works out in play.
Simon Hibbs
From even a very careful straight reading, it does appear that fate is overpowered compared to Armoursmith's Boon, Bandit's Cloak, Bearing Witness, Entertainer's Smile, Goldent Tongue and possibly others. Fate is clearly far superior to any of them by a very large margin. I can see several feasible fixes that might introduce some of checks and balances. 1) Make Fate a 3 point spell that gives a fixed +/- %20. 2) Make it a +/- 5% per point. 3) leave as-is but the opposite modifier is applied to the caster's next skill check, or the skill check after that if the caster is the target.
Bladesharp not limited to 4 points? Ok, safety catches are now firmly off in this edition of Runequest. As we will see, this is a recurring theme.
Speedart is now crap in most common combat situations because being one-shot only you get so little bang for buck compared to Bladesharp. The exception is for sniping against unprepared targets, in which case it's massively overpowered (Speedart 6 anyone?). Runequest snipers just got handed the equivalent of a Barrett Light 50. The way it worked in the old days meant it gave good bang for buck, but could not be abused because it was a fixed-return spell.
Love Hand of Death. Great for sinister martial artists.
Disruption is progressive? Nasty. Interesting. As I said, safeties off. Bladesharp is no longer a handy occasional zap spell, but is a souped-up magic hand-grenade. I'd make Disruption Resist (Persistence) because it's a purely magical attack, and it would introduce an interesting dynamic between this, Frostbite and Skybolt which is already Resist (Evade).
Frostbite seems pretty nasty too. Definitely hand-grenade territory. I'd keep Frostbite Resist (Resilience) as you're resisting a physical effect, see Disruption above.
The only Common Magic spell that helps defend against spirits is Spirit Bane, and it's of very limited utility. Having at least one decent spell to help defend in spirit combat or protect against being discorporated would be a big help. I haven't read the spirit magic rules in depth yet, but I'm concerned that most typical parties are just going to get blatted by even moderately organised spirit magicians. More on that in an appropriate thread when I have read those rules more completely.
The old RQ3 versions of most of these spells were better thought out and less game breaking. The fact that character's don't have General Hit Points nowadays I suppose makes them more resilient to multi-location damaging spells, but still...
In some ways this edition of RQ has a crazy, no-holds-barred, daring edge to it that is attractive. It does remind me of the old RQ2 in this respect. RQ3 was much more constrained and balanced, but actually not quite as much fun. It'll be interesting to see how this edition works out in play.
Simon Hibbs
Simon,
There's still the INT/3 magnitude cap. Only an epic story could get a human to INT 22 to become eligible for Bladesharp 8. One thing bothers me about the cap, however. I tend to think of magic as working in harmony with nature or with one's nature. As something I read a while back went, part of the ritual of "Bless Crops" is irrigating land, spreading manure, etc. Part of the ritual of casting Bludgeon is charging, swinging one's maul, and damning one's opponents' ancestries. Do we want to make it harder for Uzdo to cast Bludgeon 5?
There's still the INT/3 magnitude cap. Only an epic story could get a human to INT 22 to become eligible for Bladesharp 8. One thing bothers me about the cap, however. I tend to think of magic as working in harmony with nature or with one's nature. As something I read a while back went, part of the ritual of "Bless Crops" is irrigating land, spreading manure, etc. Part of the ritual of casting Bludgeon is charging, swinging one's maul, and damning one's opponents' ancestries. Do we want to make it harder for Uzdo to cast Bludgeon 5?
EricJ said:
True, but as damage gets higher it becomes exponentially more likely to cause serious or critical wounds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying reading through this game. There's loads of stuff I absolutely love, but inevitably any concerns I have rise to the surface first.
I'm not sure what your concern about the cap means though. Presumably you don't have anything specific against Trolls (understandable though that might be), but what's the problem with Bludgeon 5?
Simon Hibbs
Am I correct in my recollection that bladesharp and bludgeon were only limited to 4 points in RQ2? I thought they were uncapped in RQ3.
Speedart does seem nerfed. Archery against unsuspecting foes is now exponentially better than against foes who can react with or without enhancements, so yes speedart is especially good in that case (though the penalty to evade is a meaningless bonus against an unaware target). But still the same effect as bladesharp/bludgeon for a one off spell seems steep.
Speedart does seem nerfed. Archery against unsuspecting foes is now exponentially better than against foes who can react with or without enhancements, so yes speedart is especially good in that case (though the penalty to evade is a meaningless bonus against an unaware target). But still the same effect as bladesharp/bludgeon for a one off spell seems steep.
Rurik said:
Pretty sure they were capped in RQ3 as well.
The INT/3 cap does save the day, and I think I've underestimated the effect that dropping General Hit Points for PCs has. You can bash up as many limbs as you like down to 1 HP and the target can keep going fine. Average characters can take well over 20 points of damage without slowing down at all, as long as it's distributed across all their limbs.
MRQ2 is a deadly game in some ways, but PCs can also be very resilient. Think Bruce Willis in the Die Hard films.
Simon Hibbs
simonh said:
This is why Frostbite is so effective. It is the ultimate softener of all locations. Two maxed out rolls and every limb on the average human has a serious wound, and the victim may be unconscious- in 2 CAs using 4 MPs. Ouch. 8)
That Bludgeon 5 spell, meanwhile, will take 3 CA to prepare, and another CA to use- If it's not parried. Frostbite is a stone cold killer. It's cold blooded. That's some cold *ish*. Um...that's all I got right now.
Deleriad
Mongoose
simonh said:
That's exactly my characterisation. MRQ2 doles out a lot of pain but characters can take it. I've just finished running Blood of Orlanth and was looking at the Urox PC character sheet. Every location had multiple wounds and partial healing. The character sheet looked like a bomb had gone off on it. The fear factor for players is that once a single location becomes vulnerable they have to protect it because enemies will target it through Combat Manoeuvres or you might just get unlucky.
I tend to think that RQII would make a fine system for 1980's action hero movies.
Deleriad
Mongoose
ThatGuy said:
I asked about that and was told that they are indeed what they say: they only affect the caster. This is quite a change. Note that this true of quite a few spells such as protection.
It probably makes sense for common magic as on the whole common magic is personal.
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