Combat - grenades

[BP]

Ok, got a character in prone stance throwing a smoke grenade at an opponent 15m distant. By the book, Medium range DM is -2, and Medium range, Prone target gets a -2 DM when attacked.

However:
Goal is simply to hit a position - so the stance of the target is irrelevant and the -2 DM shouldn't apply.

It also should be harder to throw a grenade from a prone position (at least at range). Thinking double range DMs?

Normally would use Dex DM for a throw (And Athletics (Coordination) if applicable), but if range DMs are involved, perhaps Str should be an option...

So any thoughts?

 

[alex_greene]

Ok, got a character in prone stance throwing a smoke grenade at an opponent 15m distant. By the book, Medium range DM is -2, and Medium range, Prone target gets a -2 DM when attacked.So any thoughts?

Is he lying on his back? He might find it more difficult throwing anything lying face down ...

 

[phavoc]

Speaking from experience...it's a pain in the ass to throw a grenade lying prone, at least when compared to being kneeling or standing. Your accuracy sucks and all you can pretty much do is lob it.

Now, fortunately grenades are area-effect weapons. So unless they are aiming for a gap in a structure, or trying to get it to land in say a foxhole, accuracy isn't too much of an issue.

Smoke offers concealment (i.e. sight protection). So long as they get it between theirselves and the target, I would count it as a "hit". I would halve the effective range of a grenade toss if they are lying prone. Dexterity would help with accuracy, but strength allows them to throw farther.

 

[BP]

Ditto all that - well, minus the experience!

Doubling range DMs seems appropriate for grenades (close is still 0, short becomes -2 and medium -4) - I wouldn't shorten them (one could still manage medium - but with -4 this would automatically miss without other +DMs).

A success indicates smoke is effective - failure indicates miss of 6m + Effect in random direction. For smoke grenades and the like, this would also imply that the random direction wasn't between intended opponent(s) and target(s).

Str is the hard one - seems like it should only apply to counteract range DMs, but not to give extra positive DMs otherwise...

 

[Stainless]

The above thoughts are all very modelling based. Nothing wrong with that, except the anxt it appears to be causing.

Why not just use the catch-all modifiers that are already in the system?

Page 49 of core rule book.

Think, is this "difficult" (-2), "very difficult" (-4) or "formidable" (-6)?

 

[Fedmahn Kassad]

I would use the following:

Throwing laying down is dammed hard, so I would shorten the range modifiers by a band (i.e to throw to medium range, use the long range modifier) and then use either Stainless's approach and decide how difficult it is, or decide whether Accuracy (dex) or Distance (str) is what is called for and use the appropriate stat.

That kinda sets the players to thinking about what they are trying to accomplish and THEN what rolls to use, rather than being a rule-lawyer =)

 

[DeadMike]

From my experience, tossing a grenade prone would depend on if he was laying on his back or side. Laying on their stomach I can't see happening, just like laying on their throwing hand. If they are right handed and tossing left handed, that is very hard. I would say to have the player do two rolls. One for strength to see if they make the distance and a second roll for accuracy using dexterity. Either that or if they do not have a strength of 9 or more then tell them chances are the grenade will not go far enough.

Tossing a grenade, unlike popular belief by those who have never thrown one, is not like tossing a baseball. It's more like tossing a can of re-fried beans (or any other tin that is 14 to 16 oz). Put a bucket down 15 meters from a marked area. Lay down and toss a can of re-fried beans sometime and see where it lands, compared to where you wanted it too. If you are competitive, grab a friend and make a game of it. We used to have to toss a dummy grenade 25 meters at a coffee can during training. I saw a guy toss a grenade laying on his side and land it in the coffee can. Never saw a throw that lucky again, but goes to show it can be done.

 

[rust]

It seems to me that some of you are overthinking this a bit. With a smoke
grenade all one has to do is to get it a couple of meters away in the direc-
tion of the opponent, there is no need to throw it a great distance or to hit
anything specific - whether the smoke covers an area six meters or twel-
ve meters away does not really matter, provided the area covered is in
the right direction to block the line of sight.

If the character who throws the grenade has any reason to know how it
works and what he is expected to do, I would simply make it an automa-
tic success.

 

[DeadMike]

Damn. I hate overlooking a word like that. :x Doesn't need to hit anything then really. If the wind is right, all the PC needs to do is pull the pin and set it in front of them. Toss it towards the wind and hope the wind isn't fast and going from the enemy towards the PC.

 

[AndrewW]

Damn. I hate overlooking a word like that. :x Doesn't need to hit anything then really. If the wind is right, all the PC needs to do is pull the pin and set it in front of them. Toss it towards the wind and hope the wind isn't fast and going from the enemy towards the PC.

If they set it in front of them, they could try kicking it and going for a field goal...

 

[DeadMike]

Damn. I hate overlooking a word like that. :x Doesn't need to hit anything then really. If the wind is right, all the PC needs to do is pull the pin and set it in front of them. Toss it towards the wind and hope the wind isn't fast and going from the enemy towards the PC.

If they set it in front of them, they could try kicking it and going for a field goal...

My meds must be messing with me tonight. Missed smoke and now this. I don't get what you mean. If the wind is going from the PC towards the enemy you just need to pull the pin and set it next to you to get cover. What is the field goal thing?

 

[phavoc]

Actually.... laying down smoke is a leeetle bit more complicated than pulling a pin and slinking away.

Smoke provides concealment, not cover. Concealment makes you hard to see, cover protects you like dirt. If you don't place the smoke properly it won't provide you the concealment you need.

It needs to be placed in such a way to conceal your movement FROM your current location TO your future location. Which could be in any direction as well as towards the enemy. Plus you need to take into account any sort of wind that will dissipate said smoke grenade's concealing smoke.

One grenade is rarely enough if you wanna hide or "advance to the rear". Ideally you should have multiple personnel popping off smoke grenades to provide as much concealment as possible.

Now, if we were talking claymores, those are pretty idiot proof. They are even labeled..."front towards enemy". No, really!

 

[DeadMike]

Now, if we were talking claymores, those are pretty idiot proof. They are even labeled..."front towards enemy". No, really!

Sorry phavoc, but I have to disagree with you. While it is true that the claymore is labled "front towards enemy", it is far from idiot proof. If you had met some of the people I have met through my life idiot proof is not a phrase you would ever use. If you need examples, just let me know. I can give you plenty.

Speaking of claymore mines though. I wonder if Mongoose are ever going to put mines in one of the suppliments. Something missing from both Mercenary and the Supply Catalog.

 

[Stainless]

Speaking of claymore mines though. I wonder if Mongoose are ever going to put mines in one of the suppliments. Something missing from both Mercenary and the Supply Catalog.

It will never go in because Lady Diana became a deity in the Imperium and so all land mines are illegal in Imperial law :lol:

 

[phavoc]

Now, if we were talking claymores, those are pretty idiot proof. They are even labeled..."front towards enemy". No, really!

Sorry phavoc, but I have to disagree with you. While it is true that the claymore is labled "front towards enemy", it is far from idiot proof. If you had met some of the people I have met through my life idiot proof is not a phrase you would ever use. If you need examples, just let me know. I can give you plenty.

Speaking of claymore mines though. I wonder if Mongoose are ever going to put mines in one of the suppliments. Something missing from both Mercenary and the Supply Catalog.

Lol.. yeah, I've met those people too. My instructors would tell all kinds of stories about stupid people doing stupid things with mines (and artillery shells and just about anything you can think of. I had a guy in my unit take a chunk of concret and hurl it at bullet-proof glass. They were all shocked when it bounced off and left a gouge/spider web... duh! It's bullet-proof.... not idiot proof!).

Did you know that the plastic explose inside of the mine is flammable and you can safely burn it? Yep... Just don't like stomp on it to put it out because compression like that can set it off. Oops...

The original claymores didn't have the 'front towards enemy' labels. Even though they are shaped and you put the curvy side towards your intended target. But the Army powers that be decided they needed additional safety labeling when people pointed them backwards..

Yep, stupid people abound....

 

[alex_greene]

I have a question I could ask here, rather than open one up in another thread.

Do MREs really go up like little bombs if you mess with them?

 

[rust]

Do MREs really go up like little bombs if you mess with them?

The German version does not, in fact it is somewhat difficult to get it open
at all ... 8)

 

[rust]

My instructors would tell all kinds of stories about stupid people doing stupid things with mines (and artillery shells and just about anything you can think of.

We had some of those people as patients when I served as a medic with
our forces.

My favourite one was a guy who had the brilliant idea to make an ashtray
from an old artillery shell he had found somewhere by cutting the bottom
off with a cutting torch.

Unfortunately the artillery shell was not completely empty, the rest of the
explosive started to burn, and instead of an ashtray the guy got a shock,
started to scream, wanted to flee and fell to the floor with a heart attack.

 

[BP]

Ah -
Trade(Cutting Torch): Safely cutting artillery shells: Intelligence or Dexterity, 1-6 minutes, Formidable (-6). :lol:

 

[alex_greene]

Do MREs really go up like little bombs if you mess with them?

The German version does not, in fact it is somewhat difficult to get it open
at all ... 8)

I had heard a somewhat disgruntled ex-serviceman once comment that it was sometimes easier to just eat the packaging, and that it was probably the only nutritious part of the meal!