Combat Arm from CSC

[shammond42]

One of my players wants to get a single Combat Arm from the CSC 2023, p. 55. I'm uncertain how the STR effect is supposed to work. Does the enhanced strength only apply to that arm? If so, does it have any impact on general strength checks? My gut is to average the characters strength which the strength of the arm and use that for any check you can't just use the arm for. That feels like an interesting effect, and a one time calc won't add complexity. But, I'm wondering if I've missed something in the rules or if anybody has a better way to handle it.

 

[hopsnbaer]

It is pretty grey. I think you are going to have a rough time finding RAW Rulings on it and your answer is as good as any, and more lenient than some.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Yeah, I would take the average of the two arms, but that would be a lower STR than just doing an action one handed - so, you may as well be one-handed and get to use the full STR without any "handicap" from the normal arm.
If you want, you could do it as a Task Chain, with the stronger arm aiding the weaker arm with an effect score. That would result in some weird interactions.
Other than those, I dont know of any better ways.

 

[Anstett]

I like the internal task chain concept. Especially for when the arm is newly installed/attached.

Learning the coordination takes a serious amount of time so slowing down to do Lefty Stronger Righty Weaker and doing each as a task chain simulates that with no additional modifiers.

 

[shammond42]

Agreed, the internal task chain is a good idea.

 

[tytalan]

One of the problems with this type of thing is even connected to the bone you would literally rip off your arm trying to use its full strength. In my game such things are limited to no more than 2 points higher than the characters strength unless they have much more than just the arm. Moving your arm affects most of your torso, back and even the other arm. If you have two then I figure they reinforce that whole area to compensate.

 

[swordtart]

One of the problems with this type of thing is even connected to the bone you would literally rip off your arm trying to use its full strength. In my game such things are limited to no more than 2 points higher than the characters strength unless they have much more than just the arm. Moving your arm affects most of your torso, back and even the other arm. If you have two then I figure they reinforce that whole area to compensate.

The STR inherent in a Combat Arm might help with arm wrestling, but even when just striking or throwing you are generally using your core strength and if your technique is right, often your legs as well. Lifting absolutely requires more than just arm strength. However this is generally as people don't have one arm massively stronger than the rest of their body and as such technique generally points to leveraging the strength of the rest of the body as well (a possibly exception are the longbowman skeletons that showed far greater muscle development on one side of the body). We are often using the legs and trunk for power and the arm and hand for speed.

There is no point in being able to lift 100kg with one arm if your legs buckle under the weight, frankly it is hard to imagine a a circumstance where pure arm strength would make that much difference in any realistic task. The only general use I'd allow is offsetting the Bulky trait for a weapon wielded in the combat arm because there is a difference between lifting a 5 kg weight and holding it steady at arms length. The combat arm could credibly assist with that aspect as long as your core STR was enough to lift the weapon (i.e. the weight is less than the sum of your STR and END). Since it is called a combat arm and because of the above, I'd also allow the higher of your core STR and that of the arm to apply for melee attacks using a single handed weapon (since snap cuts can just use the power of the arm alone and combat isn't that granular in Traveller).

You need to be careful as getting just a +1 to core strength using Physical Augmentation on p53 is MCr0.5. Muscular Bridging on the same page is half that cost and provides +1 DEX and a 3m movement boost but it is limited to +1 maximum and is 10 times the cost of even the cheapest combat arm. An increase of 1 on your current STR is far less beneficial to the average character than simply resetting it to 12 or higher. Of course there is no reason that these could all be combined.

I would not allow a player to gain too much advantage and be very strict, and not even allow a skill chain in most circumstances. I'd put the onus on the player to justify it. You could for example crush a soup can in one hand for example and use that to provide a STR modifier to a Persuade check for intimidation.

 

[Condottiere]

Skeletal frame reinforcement.

I would guess, load bearing.

Possibly, knee replacements.

 

[MonsterX]

Skeletal frame reinforcement.

I would guess, load bearing.

Possibly, knee replacements.

At some point, it stops being a Combat Arm and starts being a Combat Everything.

 

[tytalan]

There is no point in being able to lift 100kg with one arm if your legs buckle under the weight, frankly it is hard to imagine a a circumstance where pure arm strength would make that much difference in any realistic task. The only general use I'd allow is offsetting the Bulky trait for a weapon wielded in the combat arm because there is a difference between lifting a 5 kg weight and holding it steady at arms length. The combat arm could credibly assist with that aspect as long as your core STR was enough to lift the weapon (i.e. the weight is less than the sum of your STR and END). Since it is called a combat arm and because of the above, I'd also allow the higher of your core STR and that of the arm to apply for melee attacks using a single handed weapon (since snap cuts can just use the power of the arm alone and combat isn't that granular in Traveller).

Even worse it’s very possible to damage your back, shoulders and other parts of your upper torso trying to lift that 100kg

 

[Condottiere]

Funny, this used to be covered by Girdle of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

 

[hopsnbaer]

IMO it is best just to take it at face value. I don't think it makes a huge difference to the story except to assist in getting through high armor with unarmed. Nothing wrong with any of the other solutions though. I tend to be a little strict in giving them only a +2 Deception to hide it.

 

[Condottiere]

Actually, I wonder how Steve Austin got through airport security, when not on a mission?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Actually, I wonder how Steve Austin got through airport security, when not on a mission?

Facing 1970s TL and a less paranoid airport security. Also a celebrity who can claim from his crash to have metal "pins" and screws in various places holding his bones together. Not to mention being able to flash a high security clearance to bypass it all if needed. Just as long as they don't weigh him.

 

[Endie]

Actually, I wonder how Steve Austin got through airport security, when not on a mission?

In 1994 I brought back a baseball bat from the US on a flight. In carry-on luggage. By which I mean I carried it onto the flight, not even in a bag. It was a different time.

 

[rinku]

I think the key is to look at what task the STR is being used for. Punching someone or hitting them with a sword? The cyber arm strength value makes sense, and I think that's probably the focus of it anyway.

Crushing something in its grip? Also fine.

Hanging onto a rope while dangling over a chasm? Seems like an excellent thing to have.

Climbing? Sure. That's one handhold you can definitely rely on.

Lifting heavy weights? Nope.

 

[rinku]

In relation to Colonel Austin... OSI sorted all that out, I'm sure.

 

[MonsterX]

I think the key is to look at what task the STR is being used for. Punching someone or hitting them with a sword? The cyber arm strength value makes sense, and I think that's probably the focus of it anyway.

Crushing something in its grip? Also fine.

Hanging onto a rope while dangling over a chasm? Seems like an excellent thing to have.

Climbing? Sure. That's one handhold you can definitely rely on.

Lifting heavy weights? Nope.

Punching someone or hitting them with a sword is more of a whole body movement. Punching, for example, is mostly pectorals. If done skillfully, you also mobilize your whole body into the punch. It does activate the triceps to assist the motion though.

Hanging onto things is mostly forearms; a robot arm would make a huge difference in hanging. You could basically hang there forever. Lats would be needed to pull yourself up, though you could do it in a way to make it more biceps dependent.

Climbing uses arms extensively, especially grip (i.e. forearms) but back and basically everything else is involved as well. Grip is so important, however, that a combat arm would be a major asset, once you learned how to use it.

For lifting weights, it entirely depends on which movement. If you can isolate the movement, you'll be able to get the most out of your combat arm. Actually, Athletics STR might be a very relevant skill for this. However, most things will require mostly non-arm muscles.

 

[swordtart]

One of the odd things about melee is that STR affects not only the damage you do via the DM to the damage dice, but also the chance to hit (and therefore the extra damage you do with effect). Traveller theoretically moved from armour makes you harder to hit to armour reduces the damage you take if you are hit, but the STR mods for melee subvert that.

Personally I think your chance to hit and any effect mods should be skill plus DEX DM only, STR should only be added to the damage roll itself.

Whilst sword fighting (for example) does normally use most of the body (you are not standing square on trading blows like the automata on a clock tower banging on the bell), some blows do just come from the arm (snap cuts, cuts in retreat, stop thrusts etc.). Using the gross muscles allows power to be developed while the arm directs that power. If the arm were exceptionally strong there is no mechanical reason why the power could not be developed there instead (and the rest of the body providing a greater proportion of directionality than would otherwise be the case).

I was taught that climbing mostly used the legs for preference (in fact in most activity using the leg muscles is preferable to using weaker arm muscles). Grip is clearly important, but that is just a specific use case of "hanging on". Since there are one-armed climbers however it is clearly not an absolute that both arms need to have similar strength. The problem is that in MGT2 climbing is not STR based skill it is Athletics(DEX). This could represent being coordinated and not falling off (which is usually more important than being able to hang on for extended periods). As with all DMs for characteristics however this will be a Referee call. I could certainly see where STR was more relevant (a speed climb for example) or even END (for a mountaineering attempt) were more important. It depends on your interpretation of what the different stats represent (climbers and marathon runners are generally are wiry rather than bulky like weight lifters, but they are undoubtedly stronger than your average couch potato).

Another question would be what would happen if you had both arms replaced with combat arms? Two advanced arms giving you STR 18 (STR DM+4) would only be KCr150. This is a lot of money, but a fraction of the cost of other augmentations that provide much less effect but affect core STR (even if you pay premiums to make the combat arm natural looking etc.).

 

[Condottiere]

Recalling the Vorkosigan Saga, you actually could replace one, or two, legs with an artificial arm.

Which should increase your climbing rate.