Civil Rights in MegaCity One

[Junior]

In Judge Dredd I know they got a Lie Detector but I was wondering if the people in Megacity One had the right to remain silent still?

 

[Swampy]

My thoughts are that the only rights a citizen has when being questioned by a judge are that the judge also has to obey the law. No beating or torture for example. The right of silence would be taken as obstructing justice and is a crime in itself.

 

[Junior]

My thoughts are that the only rights a citizen has when being questioned by a judge are that the judge also has to obey the law. No beating or torture for example. The right of silence would be taken as obstructing justice and is a crime in itself.

Well that certainly makes interrogation a breeze then.

 

[Ragnar Fisher]

Every citizen has the right to remain silent. However Judges have the right to haul him/her off to the sector house, pump him/her full of truth drug, scrape his/her skin off, analyse his/her stomach contents and have a psi division telepath scour his/her brainwaves for information. I recall that once Dredd ordered an immigrant into surgery on nothing more than a hunch and a fuzzy x-ray. Like a 59d (or c) 'the citizen has no rights in the matter.

I would guess, given the right wing nature of the mega city penal code, that what constitutes 'torture' is, like in today's world, a point of view (baddies do it, it's torture - we do it it's legitimate intelligence gathering), and that techniques currently in vogue in counter terrorism would be part of the Justice Department armoury.

 

[havercake lad]

Need to check up back progs, though I seem to recall a suspect who was being questioned informing Dredd that he could not be subjecyed to truth serum without any evidence of a criminal act. I would expect Psi probes etc to conform to this. Likewise I suspect that' birdie 'evidence would be co-oberative rather than a sole means of securing a conviction.
That said certain crimes under investigation give judges broader powers~
asuspicion of arson allowing use of the frightening skin peeling machine and Security of the City making torture permissable.
I've always contended that Dredd gets a lot of resources and leeway as he is ( up to recently ) the flagship of the judge system in MC1.

 

[Junior]

If there was any sort of continuity of civil rights in Megacity One it would make a good blurb in a sourcebook (maybe about "The Law!") for Judge Dredd.

 

[AndrewW]

That said certain crimes under investigation give judges broader powers~
asuspicion of arson allowing use of the frightening skin peeling machine and Security of the City making torture permissable.

EpiStrip, covered in Judge's Handbook.

 

[Ragnar Fisher]

Suspicion was enough in the Dink Jowett case (Sci-Fi Special 1986), for a juve to be subjected to stomach content analysis and possibly truth serum (the kid was injected with something). It wasn't even suspicion of anything serious. In the end no crime was commited (the 'victim', a wealthy citizen refusing to press trespass charges), and Jowett got time for wasting Justice Dept Time).

The immigrant I mentioned earlier was carrying several extra internal organs, extra blood and skin for organ leggers.

In both cases the salient point is the absence of civil rights.

 

[havercake lad]

prog 419 story 'Relative shows how a well educated citizen can resist judical questioning in Mega City during 2007. Clearly a right to silence exists here.
Dredd tries questioning the murder suspects ~
Dredd: ( To Dezibelle ) 'Was it you ?"
Hislop: " Don't answer Dezi ! admit or deny nothing ! Hes got his lie detector"
Dredd ( To Hislop ): " Refusing to answer is tantamount to admitting guilt"
Hislop: " Its nothing of the kind ! I'm a lawyer - I know ! We're not obliged to utter a single word unless we want to !"
In brief all three suspects are then put through into a grilling in the interrogation cubes. but refuse to answer the questions re a fatal poisoning....
Dredd: ( Holding syringe gun )" I'm sick of wasting my breath on you, It's time for the Truth drug"
Lymeswold : " Y-You can't use that on me ! Hislop told us ! You've got to have definate proof of involvement in a crime before you can use truth drugs or dream machines or anything of that nature"*
[i]The suspects get to walk out of the interrogation without answering any questions regarding the crime

*Presumably psi-scans, hypnosis and torture.

Admittedly getting full continuity in all the Dredd material of thirty odd years is impossible.
The above situation shows Judges can use threat of these devices , but its a bluff, a savvy suspect can refuse to co-operate unless the Judges have significant evidence ( or the Judges feel they can fairly invoke the Security of the City legislature ). I assume resisting or trying to avoid arrest might be grounds for use of interrogative apparatus. ( Can't remember if Dink was resisting arrest in the story quoted earlier on the thread ).
This approach to potential and legal citizen rights cit might be of use in a game, otherwise arresting criminals for something is way too easy, as Judges need only use their 'birdies'. Improper interrogation would certainly make it easier to appeal against a sentence.

 

[Junior]

Yeah if they didn't have some proper civil rights, like the right to remain silent, I think Judge Dredd would just be a action RPG game, maybe when they do a book about Citizens they can add civil rights, along with perp careers.

 

[Ragnar Fisher]

I guess the amount of rights you have depends on your class (for want of a better word). The Jowett juve was of no consequence and therefore free to be abused on a whim.

I've just re read the one with Yu Tse - the mystic form Philadelphia. Is that an innocent, but powerless man being electrocuted for information on a Judge's whim? I think, after twenty five years, I'm beginning to get the point about satire....

 

[Junior]

I guess the amount of rights you have depends on your class (for want of a better word). The Jowett juve was of no consequence and therefore free to be abused on a whim.

I've just re read the one with Yu Tse - the mystic form Philadelphia. Is that an innocent, but powerless man being electrocuted for information on a Judge's whim? I think, after twenty five years, I'm beginning to get the point about satire....

The Authorities can get away with anything if they fool people into giving consent, by trying to make it sound like a order. It's always good to ask if its a request or a order.

 

[Dredd Times]

When the citizens of the newly formed Mega-City One put their faith and trust in the Justice Department, allowing it to govern all aspects of policing the huge metropolis, they also gave up all their constitutional rights, including the right to remain silent (Miranda rights no longer exist in a sense).

Because the judges have the power to act as judge, jury and if needed executioner, the rights of the individual are waved. There are of course lawyers in the Big Meg who will often flout Mega-City One law to get a client off (its happened many times in the past), but for the most the rights of the people are all but dependant on the judges and the Justice Department itself.

 

[The Greek]

The Authorities can get away with anything if they fool people into giving consent, by trying to make it sound like a order. It's always good to ask if its a request or a order.

A lot of people are pressured into making confessions. This is and has been a staple of law enforcement. It is also a staple of wrongful convitions.

 

[The Greek]

I've just re read the one with Yu Tse - the mystic form Philadelphia. Is that an innocent, but powerless man being electrocuted for information on a Judge's whim? I think, after twenty five years, I'm beginning to get the point about satire....

Not a citizen = No rights (or very, very few). I think you are referring to the guy with the magical buffalo or cow?

Ditto the organ legger.

The rules on citizens are a tad muddled. Part of the problems is the comic was written for kids, initially, where these things were not so important. Continuity? Pah, by the time anything comes up they will have grown out of comics!

The other factor is different writers. Some seem to want the judges to be ultra badass and seem to throw out common sense and ignore (or be oblivious to) what has gone before. And rather miss the point.

 

[Junior]

When the citizens of the newly formed Mega-City One put their faith and trust in the Justice Department, allowing it to govern all aspects of policing the huge metropolis, they also gave up all their constitutional rights, including the right to remain silent (Miranda rights no longer exist in a sense).

Because the judges have the power to act as judge, jury and if needed executioner, the rights of the individual are waved. There are of course lawyers in the Big Meg who will often flout Mega-City One law to get a client off (its happened many times in the past), but for the most the rights of the people are all but dependant on the judges and the Justice Department itself.

Somebody already quoted a comic where the right to remain silent was there, besides in RPG terms it would just mean the judges use there birdies and they get the perp, then the RPG is just a pulp action RPG.

 

[havercake lad]

I thought the earlier post I made clearly shows the legal right to silence in most criminal cases. I conceed that many suspects are ignorant of this right or are panicked, bluffed or intimidated into making statements or not demanding a lawyer or that truth drugs etc are not used without clear evidence.
I know of a few other strips which should provide 'case law' to the above conclusions , but would rather not dig them out.
In game terms anyone with 0 or more in MC1 Law will be aware of these basic rights. Otherwise it might be a case of rolling for an NPC without that skill.

 

[havercake lad]

If you need more case law for 'right to silence'. The iconic story 'The Pit' featured two judges arresting a suspected child killer who had been reported as being the last seen citizen speaking to the juve in question.
Despite threats of violence he refused to answer the questions of the interrogating Judges and the Justice Departartment had to release him.

 

[Nuclear Fridge Magnet]

If you need more case law for 'right to silence'. The iconic story 'The Pit' featured two judges arresting a suspected child killer who had been reported as being the last seen citizen speaking to the juve in question.
Despite threats of violence he refused to answer the questions of the interrogating Judges and the Justice Departartment had to release him.

Ah yes. Judges Priest & Struthers... who tracked the suspect down later, forced him to speak at gunpoint, then executed him when the lie detector flagged him as the killer. Admittedly, they had gone off the deep end. :shock:

 

[havercake lad]

The story 'Cage of Knives' in the 1993 Winter Special includes some civil rights , even in McGruder's second office.

A religious leader who is suspected of masterminding an atrocity is taken into custody and interrogated. Lie detectors and Psi Judges were apparantly used, though failed to secure any proof of guilt. Without evidence the Judges can apparantly only hold their suspect for a maximum of seven days.