Citizens Advice Bureau - List any Career problems here.

[TrippyHippy]

General:

- Can we please remove the various Characteristic bonuses, with the exception of Social Standing, from the Mustering Out tables? They create too much inflation of characteristics, in practice, I feel, and aren't really logical as earned 'benefits' anyway. Characteristics higher that 12 should be rare too, in my view, and having multiple rolls on the mustering out table can be unbalancing in this regard, I feel.

- The Character Generation checklist is better, but capitalise 'Skills and Training' tables to avoid confusion. Also, list rolls for miltary career 'Commission' before 'Advancement'. Indeed, I'd list the 'Commission' target roll alongside 'Enlistment' target roll in the templates too.

- Thankyou for including UPPs again.

Navy - Good.

Marines - 'Space Marines' sounds more descriptive, and cooler, than 'Star Marines'. Otherwise good.

Army - Survival table needs updating - change from 'Armour' to 'Cavalry'. Otherwise good.

Scout - Good.

Merchants - Generally good. What medical cover do they recieve, though?

Agents - Intelligence assignment should be described as being patroned from a government or political power, in order to differentiate from the Corporate assignment, and it advancement should be based upon Intelligence (well, d'uh! Think of le Carre!), not Dexterity . Otherwise, good.

Nobility - Why allow a roll for career entree? You either have a high enough Social Standing or you don't. Currently, it's possible to take a Noble Career with a Soc of 2 or 3. That's silly. The 'Administration' assignment is OK, provided it doesn't end up being used as an office 'Clerk' (preferably, don't give a name for the first rank). I'd suggest that a Diplomat would advance according to his/her Intelligence score, however, and conversly the Dilettante should advance based on Social Standing (Intelligence hasn't got much to do with Paris Hilton's progress has it?!). Swap the two over.

Scholar - I like the Field Researcher assignment, but it now means that the Scientist assignment is too specific, because it doesn't allow for more general academics. Both the Field Researcher and Medics are 'scientists' too, we shouldn't forget. Also, I note that T5 is using the name 'Academic' for the broad career choice. I suggest that MongTrav matches the broad career with the same name (Academic), whilst using the 'Scholar' title instead of 'Scientist' for the assignment.

Entertainer - Good.

Rogue - I'd base the Enforcer assignment advancement on Strength, rather than Endurance, possibly. Otherwise, good.

Drifter - Good.

Other stuff:

- Races, Sophonts, Robots and AIs - The racial Characteristic modifiers list a bunch of aliens, but new players won't know what they are! I also note that T5 is including lots of information about Sophonts, Robots and AIs in their preview, but there is no mention in Mongoose's book aside from the Science skill reference "Sophontology". I think all this needs looking at.

- Medical Bills - Merchants aren't listed. Also, why should Drifters and Rogues have any opportunity to roll to see if injury expenses can be reduced? At all?

- Science Skills - Thank you for including seperate Science skills, and refining some of the definitions. However, I think Psychology (and possibly Sophontology) should be listed in Life Sciences, not social sciences, as they are most often used in gameplay as a medical application (councilling). Psychology is not the "study of thoughts and society" - it's the 'study of behaviour and the mind'. Also, a 'Cosmology' or 'Astronomy' speciality is glaringly absent from the Space Science skill.

- Skills, generally - Still need to standardise the tenses and applications of the names (eg. If you use "Navigation", then also use "Investigation", not "Investigate", etc). Pilot Aircraft, and Pilot Watercraft sounds much better than "Flyer" and "SeaFarer" respectively. There is no general 'Tech-use' skill, which I think should include various types of devices as specialisations, rather than seperate skills.

Finally, NO CITIZENS!

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

Thankyou for including UPPs again.

Amen to that!

 

[AKAramis]

Thankyou for including UPPs again.

Amen to that!

Ibid.

 

[Marquis-de-Carabas]

- Science Skills - ... However, I think Psychology (and possibly Sophontology) should be listed in Life Sciences, not social sciences, as they are most often used in gameplay as a medical application (councilling).

I would disagree. Sophontology is a mixture of Sociology and Andropology. Both are taught at university as Social Sciences. As is Psychology.

As a social science major, I really appreciate having those skills as Social Science skills. They are definetly not Life Sciences, even players would like to have them there.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Psychology earns a B.SC degree in most instances, and tends to aim for biological theories in professional (medical) practice. 'Psychiatry' is more about the administration of drugs, more than anything else. Freud himself was a medically trained doctor, who attempted to find 'biological' theories to explain behaviour and the mind (which are generally dismissed nowadays by serious professionals, but were nevertheless highly seminal in their time). Whilst there are 'social psychology' studies, they only comprise a relatively small 'branch' of the whole - and much of these studies still stem from biological theories. 'Psychopaths', for example, have their physical brains analysed for lesions or chemical imbalances.

Psychology should definitely be a Life science. It is the study of the behaviour and minds of living things. In a sci fi setting, in particular, I would expect the biological/neurological applications of this skill to be increasingly accelerated, anyway.

I can see that Sophontology would be a an anthropological 'social science' though, so I'm happy to see it remain there - although, it is really just a made up 'science' for the game, to be sure. Why not treat this as the sociological/anthropological version of 'psychology' in the game, to draw distinction from the medical practice?

Another issue that has been raised is the Engineering skill. It's too specific to Starship Operations - and I'd rather that the broader skill would just be called that. 'Engineering', in a more general application, could then be placed as a speciality of Physical Sciences (where it belongs).

 

[Deniable]

Psychology earns a B.SC degree in most instances

I've only ever seen them get a BA. This is because they're generally housed with the humanities and social sciences. Psychiatry is taught as a specialization of medicine. Actual scientific study of the brain is more usually a field of biology or neurology.

'Engineering', in a more general application, could then be placed as a speciality of Physical Sciences (where it belongs).

Engineering is only a specialization of physical science if gun combat and piloting are too. If anything, it should be its own top-level skill with specializations like electrical / electronic / control, chemical /process, mechanical, civil/structural and the others. Each of the specializations I mentioned is a degree programme in its own right. These programme's take longer than the standard physical science degree.[/quote]

 

[TrippyHippy]

Psychology earns a B.SC degree in most instances

I've only ever seen them get a BA. This is because they're generally housed with the humanities and social sciences. Psychiatry is taught as a specialization of medicine. Actual scientific study of the brain is more usually a field of biology or neurology.

Your experiences are _ very_limited then. Psychology can be taught as BA, but to get a broadly recognised Psychology degree - that shows competence and experience of scientific investigation and behavioural experimentation - that is a BSc. Here, book yourself a course:

http://www.psych-sci.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/psychology/
http://www.bbk.ac.uk/psyc/prospective/undergrad/bsc_psychology
http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/prospectus/undergrad2007/bsc_psychology.html

...or just type in BSc Psychology and find a hundreds of other places to study at, instead! :roll:

You can also do the usual check on Wikipedia for Psychology too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

I'm sorry, but way too much of the psychology discipline is based on biology, for it to be listed seperately to the Life Sciences. Blue Planet listed Psychology as a Life Science, and if made sense there, it should make sense for Traveller too.

Engineering is only a specialization of physical science if gun combat and piloting are too. If anything, it should be its own top-level skill with specializations like electrical / electronic / control, chemical /process, mechanical, civil/structural and the others. Each of the specializations I mentioned is a degree programme in its own right. These programme's take longer than the standard physical science degree.

Possibly, although I think you'll find that Physics degrees tend to involve a lot of engineering studies. Moreover, the point is that the current Engineering skill is too specific to 'Starship Operations' - all the specialisations pertain to it - yet, the broader game system still needs these specialisations to drive the starship rules. It's a problem, insofar that general engineering skills in other applications are not accounted for.

 

[Deniable]

..or just type in BSc Psychology and find a hundreds of other places to study at

Google says:
BA Psychology - 538,000 results
BSc Psychology - 129,000 results

I guess it depends on your part of the world. Here it's all BA and features no biology and only limited statistics. That and I've already got a real BSc (with honours) and don't need another one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

You should consider reading that. Take a look at the criticisms and controversies section.

Possibly, although I think you'll find that Physics degrees tend to involve a lot of engineering studies.

Where? I've got a decade in Engineering working with people from all of the disciplines I mentioned. I've seen people from pretty much every educational (and cultural) background and I've never heard of a BSc programme in physics having *any* engineering component. They're usually more focused on maths. Certainly, Engineering will include some physics and chemistry, but these will be taught from an engineering rather than a science point of view.

I also said that engineering needs to keep its specializations. I only said that it was inane to place it under physical sciences, because you would then need to place any application of science under that category.[/quote]

 

[Marquis-de-Carabas]

Psychology earns a B.SC degree in most instances, and tends to aim for biological theories in professional (medical) practice.

That's an extremly limited view of what Psychology ist. The psychology you are describing is indeed a specialty of the Medicine skill. But Psychology is actually far broader than medical application. It involves whole host of theories from Freund to Jung and beyond. And the theories are not only biological, but also social.

In Germany it is taught as a separate subject without any immediate medical implications. You can gain an M.A. in the subject.

Possibly, although I think you'll find that Physics degrees tend to involve a lot of engineering studies.

Again, Engineering in my part of the world is a seperate field of technical study. Also, Engineering is emblemating of the Traveller universe. It should be plain and visible, not hidden as a speciality of another skill.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Yeah, people, I've given a decent account of why Psychology should be a Life Science, with definitions and evidence from other sources including an online encyclopedia definition and link. If you want to dispute it, take it to there. I don't have a 'limited view' of anything, and I do know what I am talking about, thankyou - including some academic studies and qualifications of my own in the field. A BSc in Psychology is the one where you actually experiment and investigate scientifically, certainly in a variety of different ways and approaches, of course. A BA in psychology, on the other hand, involves sitting in lectures, reading, and writing essays. You are much more likely to get employed in fields such as councelling, or criminal forensics, for example, if you have a BSc qualification. That is a Life Science, by default.

I have also studied physics at university - made up of engineering modules too, so the idea of people telling me they don't exist is plainly wrong. The fact is that you can't actually study Engineering without a grounding in physical sciences (and maths) first. It is a discipline that is an application of scientific principles. That's why it could work as a speciality. I mean, heck, they already have Electronics as a Physical science there already! I'm not particularly fussed if they keep Engineering seperate though, but the current problem is that it only allows specialisation for Starship Operations. That's too narrow, in a generic sci-fi game. What about chemical engineering, for example?

I'm going to move on, and leave it at that right now.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

This thread is being derailed. It is for discussing any problems with Careers, not the Skill section, which are different things.

Discussion of Science and Engineering merits its own thread.

Anyhow, my thoughts on the careers list...

[EDIT]
Background skills: add Athlete, Persuade, Animals to the higher Edu list.
[/EDIT]

Navy - fine

Marines - Star(Space!) Marines need Gunnery somewhere, perhaps replace Pilot with it, as Support units can get that already.

Army - fine

Scouts - fine

Merchants - fin-ish, tho there's no way for a Free Trader to gain Gunnery or Engineering (perhaps as an Advanced Edu skill, replacing Social Science)

Agent - fine, though maybe a disclaimer that those who have to submit to the draft after prison can't become Law Enforcers.

Nobility - ok, though perhaps needs renaming as it seems to cover all kind of ruling class type person, whether aristocrats or patricians or party officials - calling it Noble is very much tied to the OTU.

Scholar - great: nice to see those field skills. Again, though, terminology is a bit fuzzy: I'd use Field Scientist and Academic (which would include lab-work), but that's just me.

Entertainer - fine as far as it goes, but there's no proper way to make an Athlete or Sportsman using Performer - it either needs another table (a la Officers) or the Performer and Service tables needs modifying.

Rogue - fine.

Drifter - ok, though possibly could do with a bit of work - I'd have thought a Drifter/Wanderer might access a few spacer skills too. You could add some skills to the Adv Edu table, as Edu doesn't just represent formal education.

I'll add to the chorus for a Citizen career, including Colonist (or rural), Technician (blue collar), and Operator (white collar and service).

Also, there does not seem an easy way to make corporate executive type characters - it seems to be split between Noble, Merchant, and Agent, and each of these career specialisms are a bit peripheral for normal corporate work. So how about Executive, with specs in Corporate (businessmen), Professional (lawyers and accountants), and Civil Servant (for the bureaucrats and those that run departments in a non-govt way and those pesky officials).

I plead for these last two not only for player characters, but because the vast majority of npcs and patrons will often hail from these groups.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Yep, I originally felt that think the Merchant career should have included a broader 'Corporate' assignment in place of 'Merchant Marine', but it's hard to rectify here, insofar that Merchants are seen more as 'travelling traders' currently.

Currently, the 'Corporate' career is really part of Noble: Administration, or Agent: Corporate, as it stands. I'm not too worried about them being there - nor about the Noble career being too specific. A lot of sci-fi is 'neo-feudal' in setting design (including cyberpunk, in many ways), and the Noble moniker shouldn't just be seen as being 'royal' by default. To me, 'Noble' just means 'property-owning citizen that seeks or can apply power'. That 'property' may be business orientated as well as land or electorate based, and would include corporate execs, in my view.

However, the basic ommission is still the run-of-the-mill Citizens, to give those Nobles/Execs somebody to boss around! I agree, the Citizens career should be split into Clerical/Service, Technical and Labour(Physical) assignments.

 

[AKAramis]

Re Psychology:

Locally, three different degree tracks carry the term "Psychlogy":
Bachelor/Master of Arts in Psychology Counseling
Bachelor/Master of Science in Psychlogy
Bachelor/Master of Educational Psychology

All three masters qualify one for clinical licensure. The MA don't do a Thesis, instead doing a degree practicum. MS does an experimental research based thesis rather than a degree practicum. The courses are the exact same program.

The Ed-Psych does a "student teaching" as a school psychologist on the master's level, and focuses more on children.

In Re Engineering:
It's Ship's Engineering, not Civil Engineering. Civil Engineering is a wholly different, and missing, skill, possibly belonging with Physical Sciences.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

So Psychology should be listed under both Life Sciences and Social Sciences, because then everyone's happy.

The thing about the engineering specialisms is that Life Support and Power Plant have uses beyond that for starships.

What is the difference between running a fusion reactor on a starship and running one in a power station on a planet?

Similarly, how is an air recycling system in a hab dome that different to one on a starship?

The same with Electronics.

Given that skills are deliberately broad and general wouldn't it make more sense to include civil type applications in the general Engineering skill rather than making a distinction between Starship Engineering and General Engineering?

If we want to limit the number of 0 level qualifications that come with it (and I think you can justify both limiting and not limiting) then you could say characters only get one 0 level Engineering spec per skill level in their first spec. we could go further to list 3 related engineering specs the character must pick from first (so that he'd need a skill level of 4 to get just any spec).

eg:

M-Drive can pick from J-Drive, Power Plant, and Life Support before other specs.

Civil can pick from Power Plant, Life Suport, and Electronics.

or some such. etc.

Edit:
re/Nobles. Actually, they are 'royal(ish)' by default. That's the very definition of Nobility . Patrician would be a better moniker if it was to include none-aristocratic archetypes.

 

[SableWyvern]

My minor quibbles with the Skills and Training Tables:

Marines No vac suit at all? I'm not sure if marines are sometimes expected to fight in vac suits (are they always equipped with battle dress?), but even if they don't, they still spend a fair amount of time ship board.

I'd drop Stealth from the Service table and replace it with Vac Suit. Stealth could optionally go into the Ground Assault table, replacing Melee (blade).

Edit: Scouts now have survival as a Service skill. I am blind.