Christianity as a cult
- Thread starter FailTruck
- Start date
This could become somewhat difficult, depending on the background
of your setting and campaign. While the early Christianity during the
time of the Roman Empire might perhaps be written up as a cult, du-
ring the decline of the Roman Empire the Christian church developed
into something much more like an empire of its own, and in the Mid-
dle Ages it was a mighty empire in all but name - far too big and too
complex to fit into the frame of a mere cult, at least in my view.
A few informations about the size and power of the Christian church
in your setting could make it easier to come up with ideas for its pos-
sible conversion in a Legend system cult.
of your setting and campaign. While the early Christianity during the
time of the Roman Empire might perhaps be written up as a cult, du-
ring the decline of the Roman Empire the Christian church developed
into something much more like an empire of its own, and in the Mid-
dle Ages it was a mighty empire in all but name - far too big and too
complex to fit into the frame of a mere cult, at least in my view.
A few informations about the size and power of the Christian church
in your setting could make it easier to come up with ideas for its pos-
sible conversion in a Legend system cult.
My game is set in 11th century England. As far as I understand in that era christianity has a firm grip on the mainland of Europe and is beginning to spread throughout England. They are very definately being set up as "the bad guys" in my game.
By cult I just mean what spells are available for them etc, what there cult skills are. but you are correct in that its a pretty broad for christianity.
By cult I just mean what spells are available for them etc, what there cult skills are. but you are correct in that its a pretty broad for christianity.
There is an excellent description of the Christian church in EnglandFailTruck said:
in exactly that period, complete with skills and spells for this back-
ground, in the Merrie England supplement for BRP, and the material
could easily be converted for Legend or any other d100 system:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/98069/Merrie-England
Jujitsudave
Mongoose
I agree with the Deus Vult assessment. That book is what I'd go to for Divine magic for Christianity.
Yes, if you want a medieval Christian writeup then Merrie England and Deus Vult would be ideal.
The main thing to decide is how you want the cults to work. I prefer one cult per Saint, so each Saint gives one or two spells/blessings. Some people prefer one cult per religion, so one for Christianity, one for Islam and so on. That has its merits and it makes it easier to have a generic cult for the flavour of the religion required (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Cathar) and a number of Sant cults that tie into them.
The main thing to decide is how you want the cults to work. I prefer one cult per Saint, so each Saint gives one or two spells/blessings. Some people prefer one cult per religion, so one for Christianity, one for Islam and so on. That has its merits and it makes it easier to have a generic cult for the flavour of the religion required (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Cathar) and a number of Sant cults that tie into them.
Prime_Evil
Emperor Mongoose
soltakss said:
If you are using one cult per religion, the interesting question is whether you represent heretical groups (Cathars, Arians, Monophysites, Lollards, etc) as separate cults.
Prime_Evil said:
And that is a game decision that the GM or players should make themselves.
Personally, I think that they are different cults with shared things. So, Catholics and Orthodox worshippers would share a lot od core spells, Catholics and Cathars would share some core spells and so on. The difference is in the other stuff. Do they believe in Saints? If so, what Saints do they worship/venerate? What about HeroQuests, relics, mysteries, mysticism? Those affect the cults and how they work.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
I would go with Christianity (remember the split between Greek Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism only happened in 1054, so during the 11th C. they would still be quite similar) as a pantheon with a "core" list of "general" Christian spells (which would be almost the same amongst the sects), and specific sects (i.e. Greek Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism) with their own sub-cults to reflect their specific foci.
The analogy that I like is the way Malkionism (OK it's sorcery, but the structure is what I'm on about) is treated in RQII... all use 'The Abiding Book' but the different orders all have separate grimoires with additional spells derived from it, while additional saints offer yet more.
This would also reflect the historical attitude during the 11th C. that "if only the other Christians would realise their errors (i.e. do it like us), all would be fine in the Universal Church". The writing-off of the other churches happened a bit later.
There were no Cathars in the 11th C. - there are some references to the Bogomils in Macedonia and Bulgaria from c. 930, but they are very localised and nowhere near England.
Catharism was pretty much a 12th C. movement. You might just be able to stretch their existence in the Rhineland of the Empire into the end of the first quarter of the 12th C. though.
The analogy that I like is the way Malkionism (OK it's sorcery, but the structure is what I'm on about) is treated in RQII... all use 'The Abiding Book' but the different orders all have separate grimoires with additional spells derived from it, while additional saints offer yet more.
This would also reflect the historical attitude during the 11th C. that "if only the other Christians would realise their errors (i.e. do it like us), all would be fine in the Universal Church". The writing-off of the other churches happened a bit later.
There were no Cathars in the 11th C. - there are some references to the Bogomils in Macedonia and Bulgaria from c. 930, but they are very localised and nowhere near England.
Catharism was pretty much a 12th C. movement. You might just be able to stretch their existence in the Rhineland of the Empire into the end of the first quarter of the 12th C. though.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
As for Christianity's runes (if you wish to use them - and they are perhaps not setting applicable in any case), I think I'd use "Death", "Life", and "Mastery".
duncan_disorderly
Mongoose
Lord High Munchkin said:
I'm not sure that Christianity is a Death Cult - albeit the Christian Cross and the Gloranthan Death Rune share the same pictogram.
I'd tie the three Runes to the three aspects of the Trinity (Admittedly this might cause problems if you want to represent other Real World religions in the same way where they don't have this convenient split...)
God The Father - Mastery (You shall have no other Gods but me)
God The Son - Harmony (Love God and Love Thy Neighbour)
God The Holy Ghost - Life (Life everlasting in the Kingdom of Heaven)
You can then represent various Heretical sects by swapping out Runes, or swapping which aspect of the Trinity maps to which Rune...
(Arianism, for instance would represent God The Son with the Man Rune)
A post with this title in almost any other forum would have been fightin' words. I'm glad to see the civility of the discussion here. 
I think that if you make "christianity" into a single cult, you lose an opportunity to add difference and flavor to the various religious options. As early as you're looking to play, I suspect it would work best as reverence of different saints, with one individual not limited to devotion to a single saint, but perhaps spreading their POW around amongst those that best represent their religious life.
Later, of course, with the broad separation of sects, it's easier lump all of Catholicism into a single cult, as you have various flavors of Protestantism to choose from.
So I guess in short my advice would be to figure out how many cults you want to have, for flavor's sake, and adjust your granularity accordingly.
I think that if you make "christianity" into a single cult, you lose an opportunity to add difference and flavor to the various religious options. As early as you're looking to play, I suspect it would work best as reverence of different saints, with one individual not limited to devotion to a single saint, but perhaps spreading their POW around amongst those that best represent their religious life.
Later, of course, with the broad separation of sects, it's easier lump all of Catholicism into a single cult, as you have various flavors of Protestantism to choose from.
So I guess in short my advice would be to figure out how many cults you want to have, for flavor's sake, and adjust your granularity accordingly.
hanszurcher
Mongoose
I probably wouldn't go with defining the church as a divine cult, to confining. I'd go with sorcerous factions instead, demonology and necromancy fit the times well. A cabal of black magicians as the true power behind the papacy, a time tested recipe for fun.FailTruck said:
The kinds of spells available would of course depend on your setting. Is magic common place or is it more covert? Is God really a holy trinity or an octopoid monstrosity? Does God provide spells or do demons trick men into believing God does?
For some ideas grounded in history and legend check out The Sworn Book of Honorius, which is often attributed to either Pope Honorius I or Pope Honorius III. Eliphas Levi interpreted its references to animal sacrifice to be codes for sacrificing human beings. Very naughty.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
It wasn't the runic glyph that influenced me to suggest the "Death" rune, but rather the "triumph over death" and "everlasting life after death" aspect of the 'New Testament' and the "righteous smiting" and "divine vengence" of the 'Old Testament'. There is also the "Harrowing of Hell" bit too.duncan_disorderly said:
I very nearly suggested the "Harmony" rune (a few cults do have four runes), but I thought three was more normal and "trinity-like" (as you also pointed out).
A pretty good case could also be made for "Storm" for the 'Old Testament' god (as could "Law").
In a historical setting it would depend a lot on the specific period.duncan_disorderly said:
There was a time in the Middle Ages when Christianity was indeed
overly fascinated by suffering and death, its churches full of ima-
ges of cruelly murdered martyrs or of Dance of Death symbolism,
with Flagellants in the streets outside and a general expectation of
the mass death of the Apocalypse in the immediate future. For a
non-Christian this must have looked very much like a Death Cult,
and in a setting where the church is depicted as evil I would treat
it as the Death Cult it seemed to be at that time.
A nice example of the kind of religious art I am thinking of:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Wolgemut_-_1493_-_tanz_der_gerippe.jpg&filetimestamp=20070720101933
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
I certainly agree that towards the end of the Middle ages (and, as you mention, at other periods) there was a cultural obsession with death and things macabre (in the word's usage as "gruesomely imaginative"). This might be slightly out of period for the 11th Century though.
That said, the "triumph over Death", Death in its usage as "sharp division", and 'Old Testament' "righteous smiting" are still relevant.
That said, the "triumph over Death", Death in its usage as "sharp division", and 'Old Testament' "righteous smiting" are still relevant.
Describing Christianity as a single monolithic cult doesn't really work for me as it misses the different flavours of sects, orders and the worship of the Saints. In a Roleplaying Game, variety is the spice of life, and introducing variety in how religions are written up just increases the amount of fun that can be had with them.
I wouldn't assign runes to Christian cults, but would be happier using passions. Again, applying these to the whole of Christianity doesn't make much sense, but applying them to individual sects, orders or organisations makes sense to me. That way, you can write up each organisation that is important in the game, with a list of rules, dress, beliefs, passions, skills and spells. Two PCs could both be Christian, but have radically different world views, beliefs and spells available to them.
In Merrie England, spells can be gained through mainstream Christianity, through pilgrimages, having a patron saint, venerating other saints, studying scripture, simply being a ranking member of the church and through mysticism. Each saint provides one, or rarely two, spells and a PC could well have a patron saint from his country, another from his profession and possibly another from where he is born, all providing different spells, and PCs can venerate other saints by choice.
Deus Vult has a slightly different model, as the setting assumes that monks belong to one Order, so spells are the ones available to that Order.
But, it all depends on how you see religions as working in your setting.
I wouldn't assign runes to Christian cults, but would be happier using passions. Again, applying these to the whole of Christianity doesn't make much sense, but applying them to individual sects, orders or organisations makes sense to me. That way, you can write up each organisation that is important in the game, with a list of rules, dress, beliefs, passions, skills and spells. Two PCs could both be Christian, but have radically different world views, beliefs and spells available to them.
In Merrie England, spells can be gained through mainstream Christianity, through pilgrimages, having a patron saint, venerating other saints, studying scripture, simply being a ranking member of the church and through mysticism. Each saint provides one, or rarely two, spells and a PC could well have a patron saint from his country, another from his profession and possibly another from where he is born, all providing different spells, and PCs can venerate other saints by choice.
Deus Vult has a slightly different model, as the setting assumes that monks belong to one Order, so spells are the ones available to that Order.
But, it all depends on how you see religions as working in your setting.
FailTruck said:
Actually, historically, England was pretty much Christian from the 7th or 8th Century. One of the Anglo-Saxon gripes about the rampaging Vikings was that they were pagans, so within 200 years or so, they had gone from a pagan people to a Christian people complaining about invaders who worshipped the same gods as they themselves used to. Even the Vikings were quickly converted, within a few generations, so that by the 11th century, even Scandinavian rulers (Kings, Nobles) were founding abbeys.
But, there's no problem with assuming that England was still mostly pagan in the 11th century - it is your game, after all.
FailTruck said:
Split it into Orders, Sects, Saint cults and so on. They are easy to use and work well with Legend.
Folks,
thanks for all this information! However, I've decided to take the track that Christianity produces no divine spells (nor does any religion in fact) and the only magic available is going to be a dark and corrupting one (using blood magic). It fits into my players needs for a game, as well as where I wanted to take the story. Not saying that there will be no religion in the game (in fact its a major theme) it just wont have a supernatural effect.
Cheers all!
thanks for all this information! However, I've decided to take the track that Christianity produces no divine spells (nor does any religion in fact) and the only magic available is going to be a dark and corrupting one (using blood magic). It fits into my players needs for a game, as well as where I wanted to take the story. Not saying that there will be no religion in the game (in fact its a major theme) it just wont have a supernatural effect.
Cheers all!
