Charged Energy Pulse

[Sulfurdown]

Has there been a [better] solution to the fighter problem for ancients/shadows/vorlons than the c.e.pulse for 2nd Edition?

I would think that if fighters are such a problem for the ancient factions that they would have better fighters themselves or hardened defenses to aux.craft weapons rather then the 'powerful engine' solution. The introduction of the CEP reminds me of a twisted version of AoG Ipsha's Spark Field more than anything I recall seeing in the series (the S/F obviously was never part of the series since the Ipsha never made an appearance after the one for 'Deathwalker')

Or am I outside the general pack on my dislike for this rule? :?

(edited to be a more positive person)

 

[Valen is my name]

well i can't speak for the pack but i think it makes sense. don't forget that the vorlons 'grow' their ships and each one contains one vorlon, so they would rather have one destroyer than one fighter, because it is still only one vorlon, but that one vorlon is a lot more powerful, and the charged energy pulse means that the vorlon does not have to bother himself with attacking fighters with other weapons, instead the vorlon can focuss on the bigger warships, and ignore the pesky fighters knowing that if they get too close they'll probably die anyway.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I was generally under the impression that the Vorlon fighters were similar to a remote control vessel. I know the Shadow fighters by cannon were controlled by the carrier ship (actually part of the carrier ship material that's ejected and forms the fighters).

I don't have a reasonable solution to offer in place of the CEP, since fighters do have the potential to cause headaches, other then to suggest that the Vorlon/Shadow Fighters are bumped to a Dogfight +2 or +3, or provide for an Interceptor fighter variant in addition to the current Heavy fighters.



:!: ATTN 2e Playtesters: Any hint on whether the S&V will be getting carrier ships for second edition? :!:

 

[Da Boss]

I know the Shadow fighters by cannon were controlled by the carrier ship (actually part of the carrier ship material that's ejected and forms the fighters). :!: ATTN 2e Playtesters: Any hint on whether the S&V will be getting carrier ships for second edition? :!:

Hmm well they do (shadows anyway) operate several times on their own and seem very resiliant and have good weapons - in fact the only way the Naran fighters can seem to be able to cause damage is to ram them. Perhaps there should be "heavy fighters" as well.

Carriers seem a very very good idea for both races, give them more choice and if they are fleet carriers gives them a edge in dogfighting. Plus makes sense they can then "respawn" back on the carrier.

 

[Ripple]

Well I did vote I didn't like it but that is not entirely true.

The mechanic is okay. Not great mind you, but it does at least try to address the issue. If range four fighters were not the defacto fighter for at least one major race and some of the league (well two anyway) it would be better.

My main beef with it is two fold, one lack of support from the show. We see a starfury run the length of a Vorlon heavy cruiser at very near skin dancing ranges. It does not suffer any mysterious 'overload' affects, engine based or otherwise. Similarly we don't see the transport docking inside B5 cause any blown circuits.

Second issue is more about how we see the shadows and vorlons operate in the show. Their fights are in no way the slow weak fighters we see in the game. They are not being outrun by ships or fighters (the Narn are barely staying ahead and one of their number falls back to buy more time for the escape). I just see no basis for the low dogfight score, or the lower than normal speed and dodge.

I'd rather see them get carriers and such myself...but eh...I can live with this too. Mainly they need to get rid of the silly d6 damage system.

Ripple

 

[JayRaider]

Before CEP the Vorlons could be attacked by enemy fighters without a reasonable chance to defend itself.
It was very annoying and stopped me personally playing as Vorlons.
Mongoose wants the Vorlons to be good at higher priorties.
To give them good interceptor fighters would go against that.
Say what you like about CEP, its mechanic or fluff, at least i'll play Vorlons again.

 

[Sulfurdown]

It strikes me that this is a recurring theme of ships. The basic slant of the game mechanics emphasizes the use of lower level priorities to swamp higher levels because the high level ships can't compensate against the critical effects and overwhelming damage dice from lower ships.

 

[JayRaider]

It strikes me that this is a recurring theme of ships. The basic slant of the game mechanics emphasizes the use of lower level priorities to swamp higher levels because the high level ships can't compensate against the critical effects and overwhelming damage dice from lower ships.

I agree with you.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Before CEP the Vorlons could be attacked by enemy fighters without a reasonable chance to defend itself.
It was very annoying and stopped me personally playing as Vorlons.
Mongoose wants the Vorlons to be good at higher priorties.
To give them good interceptor fighters would go against that.
Say what you like about CEP, its mechanic or fluff, at least i'll play Vorlons again.

I say again, this idea is utter nonsense. Why should any given race be "good" or "bad" at any given priority level? Every race with a military would field ships of all sizes and classes to cover every battlefield role they feel needs covering - especially the Shadows and Vorlons who've had millions of years to perfect their arts of war.

 

[tneva82]

I say again, this idea is utter nonsense. Why should any given race be "good" or "bad" at any given priority level? Every race with a military would field ships of all sizes and classes to cover every battlefield role they feel needs covering - especially the Shadows and Vorlons who've had millions of years to perfect their arts of war.

Wether Vorlons and shadows have any ships WEAK ENOUGH to classify as patrol/skirmish is another thing though...

Note we are not talking about size(afterall vorlon transport is more akin to diplomatic shuttle of younger race...Wonder if it's even size of Hermes...Can Hermes dock into B5?) but about power level and cost.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The PL system is a game mechanic; saying the Vorlons have no light cutters or patrol craft and justifying it by saying even their transport ships are "too powerful" for low PLs is absurd.

 

[Greg Smith]

Why is it absurd? If a Vorlon transport is a match for an Earthforce Heavy Cruiser, surely it should be at the same priority level. In the same way, the Omega is not match for the Sharlin, though they serve similar roles, so they are at different priority levels.

 

[tneva82]

The PL system is a game mechanic; saying the Vorlons have no light cutters or patrol craft and justifying it by saying even their transport ships are "too powerful" for low PLs is absurd.

They might have but as with vorlon transport they would then be at raid/battle level...

Note that their diplomatic SHUTTLE is equilavent of EA *heavy cruiser*. Shuttle!

What you can think of that is in strenght between fighter and diplomatic shuttle?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How do you know the ship Kosh flew in on is a typical Vorlon transport ship? Or that its capabilities are equivalent to an EarthForce cruiser?

What's absurd is the idea that a civilisation millions of years old can't build a light warship to cover the same roles as the younger races' light cutters and a patrol ships. If MGP is going to stick to the PL system then every race needs to have viable choices at every level, otherwise it's a millstone round players' necks instead of a benefit. Might as well just have points and be done with it.

 

[Triggy]

How do you know the ship Kosh flew in on is a typical Vorlon transport ship? Or that its capabilities are equivalent to an EarthForce cruiser?

What's absurd is the idea that a civilisation millions of years old can't build a light warship to cover the same roles as the younger races' light cutters and a patrol ships. If MGP is going to stick to the PL system then every race needs to have viable choices at every level, otherwise it's a millstone round players' necks instead of a benefit. Might as well just have points and be done with it.

But they do have light ships to fill those roles. They're just at high PLs because they're so good at them!

 

[Galatea]

In fact it's a matter of balance.
You can't make Vorlon Transports a Patrol Option as long as they blast any other patrol vessel to pieces with one shot.
So they are raid.
Not because of their size but because of their power.

 

[sidewinder]

Remember, ships in 2e are supposed to get a new anti-fighter trait. lets wait and see if vorlon and shadows get it too. Maybe both races will get a dedicated anti-fighter escort ship?

 

[Sulfurdown]

What's absurd is the idea that a civilisation millions of years old can't build a light warship to cover the same roles as the younger races' light cutters and a patrol ships.

Assuming you had the technology to build a light craft with the same power as another race's heaviest of ships with the same ease that those races produce their lightest ships. Why would you ever bother building a crippled version of your light ship in the same power structure as that other race's lightest ships? It makes utterly no military or economic sense. If you can produce ships that are as versatile as a light ship with the power of a heavy, you do it. So where the other races start at Priority Patrol, ancient races of immense power would fit into that scale probably starting at Skirmish or Raid with their lightest of light ships (probably the fighters).

That said, I can understand what you're saying about the Priority from a player's perspective and how it becomes crippled when a fleet is forced into low end restrictions. Mongoose is trying to split the difference and I have to give them credit for coming as close as they have. The problem with the Ancient power levels and the levels of those more advanced races, it isn't that they are necessarily "weak" in low PL, it's that the Scenario Priority forces unnatural engagements for the sake of competition and playability. At the Battle of the Line, the Minbari did not hold back and send a fleet of Torotha and Leshath to duel it out against some Hyperions. They sent in the biggest heavy hitters they could spare to annihilate an inferior force. Under the Scenario Priority system, that won't happen because that isn't close to a fair game.

 

[thatcash]

My main beef with it is two fold, one lack of support from the show. We see a starfury run the length of a Vorlon heavy cruiser at very near skin dancing ranges. It does not suffer any mysterious 'overload' affects, engine based or otherwise.

That's because the HC just performed a Special Action. :mrgreen:

Similarly we don't see the transport docking inside B5 cause any blown circuits.

It "toned down it's engine output? Constant All Stops? Ok, I'm reaching on the last one...

 

[Alexb83]

In fact it's a matter of balance.
You can't make Vorlon Transports a Patrol Option as long as they blast any other patrol vessel to pieces with one shot.
So they are raid.
Not because of their size but because of their power.

This always makes me laugh. I've yet to meet a Vorlon ship (aside from the Heavy Cruiser) that can realistically blast any other ship apart in one shot. A transport will struggle to land 2 hits a turn on a hull 6 target at /any/ PL, or 3 on hull 5.

And with the heavy Cruiser (Armageddon level) you will struggle to kill 1-2 of your run-of-the-mill hull 6 skirmish/raid ships per turn (from experience!).

Everyone harps on about Vorlon firepower... I say, what Vorlon firepower? The quality of the dice they roll is great, but the quantity and range are abysmal, and they have but one arc. Thankfully AIUI at least one of these issues is being fixed in 2e