character question

[DFW]

At the moment, while I understand the basics of digital computer hardware I wouldn't say I could _design_ a new PCI card but I'd really like to work in a CPU development team

Right, because you didn't study Engineering, Electronics. Of course you couldn't jury rig a repair on complex electronic systems/circuits that were battle damaged. That takes engineering skill & training.

I'll elaborate. You wouldn't be hired onto container cargo ship as THE Electronics Engineer with Level-0 Engineers under your command. In Mgt that would take a minimum of Engineer (Electronics) - 1. Eng - 2 for a large one.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Well, it you had studied how to maintain/repair complex electronic systems you would then know that in learning that, you ALSO obtain the knowledge necessary to design them. It is de facto.

if?

I have been through military electronics school, trade schools, and college.

My character would like to have the electronics in their wafer jack designed by a scholar with a background in Physical Science(Electronics) and working in research labs rather than some Spacehand electronics engineer who spent their career doing repair and maintenance of ships computers and sensors.

...you didn't study Engineering, Electronics...

How many people in RL have studied the repair and maintenance of Spacecraft electronics. To me, RL Engineering, electronics would be closer to Traveller Physical Science(Electronics).

Please describe your interpretation of the difference between these two Traveller skills.

 

[rust]

Perhaps there is also a terminology problem somewhere here. In some
countries, for example over here, an engineer is someone who has stu-
died several years at a university or an institution of the same level. He
is in effect a scientist who specialized in applied science, and his task is
indeed to design stuff and control its production, less so only to operate
and repair it - that is the job of a technician.

Traveller, and some other roleplaying games, treats the engineer as the
term is often used especially in the USA, as a kind of advanced mechanic,
but not a scientist with a university degree equivalent to a doctorate. So,
it depends much on your view what "engineer" means in Mongoose Tra-
veller to decide whether he can invent new applications of technology, or
only handle already common ones.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Of course you couldn't jury rig a repair on complex electronic systems/circuits that were battle damaged. That takes engineering skill & training.

I can! Seriously. I was trained to repair circuit boards with bullet holes and other damage. No jury rigging though. Just filling in the damaged area with epoxy then using replacement parts. This is more of a dexterity and mechanical skill than "Engineering".

As rust said, there is probably a terminology issue. To me, a RL "engineer" could possibly be a designer/inventor but in Traveller, it is the scientists.

Inventor. Not that anyone with any background can't come up with a great idea in their own specific area of expertise but I'm thinking of a scientist when I think of a "career" inverter, especially in Traveller.

 

[DFW]

Traveller, and some other roleplaying games, treats the engineer as the
term is often used especially in the USA, as a kind of advanced mechanic,
but not a scientist with a university degree equivalent to a doctorate.

That's incorrect. In the US Merchant Marine Acad, if you are going on the Engineer track (to work in a ship's engineering section here is what you get:
"The Engineering Majors provide midshipmen with the education and training to design, build, operate, maintain and repair the engineering systems used on modern marine vessels".

Deck Officer trainees do an overview.

http://www.usmma.edu/academics/curriculum/marineengineeringsystems.shtml

Case rested.

 

[rust]

In the US Merchant Marine Acad ...

True, but there are also lots of "engineers" who never earned any kind
of university level degree, and where "engineer" is just a polite word for
any kind of technical job - just think of a "combat engineer", a "railroad
engineer" or the "sanitation engineer" who does the odd jobs around a
company's building. This use of the term would be impossible over here,
where "engineer" is a legally protected title, and using it without having
the degree is a crime.

 

[BP]

Indeed - I (a natural US Citizen) believed the same way regards Engineer as an official title that denotes someone with formal education intended to provide the know how to design (but not necessarily implement or sometimes even use, much less repair or jury-rig) technical items.

The first time I encountered the 'modern' redefinition (some, er, 20+ years ago) I took quite a bit of exception... razzing the IBM programming, support and sales folks (Sales Engineers - geez!) so badly that they changed their titles and business cards to avoid harassment when dealing with the company I worked for!

I've worked with formally trained and experienced professional Research Scientists and Engineers - and in most cases they lacked the actual skill and know-how to make their designs work. But that is not to say they were incompetent or unnecessary - quite the contrary.

Being able to design something doesn't mean you can build it or even necessarily use it. I can do all kinds for precision cad designs - but lack the machining skills to implement them.

Likewise, being able to build things, repair them, or even enhance them does not imply an ability to design them.

 

[apoc527]

In my mind, it would be:

Physical Science (electronics) to design a completely new item and Engineer (Electronics) to actually build it.

Mechanic could be used to build and modify stuff (mechanical stuff, not electronics). I view this is as the BA Baracus skill (from the A-Team...Mr. T's character...if you still don't know what I'm talking about, borrow a time machine and go back to the 80s). You know the scene...<cue A-team theme> lots of welding, cutting, and voila, a school bus becomes an APC...

 

[zero]

Question; if your character has the skill Engineer (Jump Drive), what does that mean they can do within the realms of that skill past the obvious "pressing the big red button to make the J-Drive work" that most people use it for?? :?

 

[rust]

Question; if your character has the skill Engineer (Jump Drive), what does that mean they can do within the realms of that skill past the obvious "pressing the big red button to make the J-Drive work" that most people use it for?? :?

In my view, operation, maintenance and basic repair, but neither the de-
sign nor the construction of new jump drives, this would be the job of a
naval architect.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Perhaps there is also a terminology problem somewhere here. In some
countries, for example over here, an engineer is someone who has stu-
died several years at a university or an institution of the same level. He
is in effect a scientist who specialized in applied science, and his task is
indeed to design stuff and control its production, less so only to operate
and repair it - that is the job of a technician.

Traveller, and some other roleplaying games, treats the engineer as the
term is often used especially in the USA, as a kind of advanced mechanic,
but not a scientist with a university degree equivalent to a doctorate. So,
it depends much on your view what "engineer" means in Mongoose Tra-
veller to decide whether he can invent new applications of technology, or
only handle already common ones.

"In Germany, if I introduce myself to the new neighbours as an engineer, they show me their loveliest daughter, in Britain (and the USA?) they show me their washing machine" From unknown British engineer

Egil

 

[rust]

"In Germany, if I introduce myself to the new neighbours as an engineer, they show me their loveliest daughter, in Britain (and the USA?) they show me their washing machine" From unknown British engineer

There is some truth and wisdom in this ... :lol:

 

[BP]

:lol:

Question; if your character has the skill Engineer (Jump Drive), what does that mean they can do within the realms of that skill past the obvious "pressing the big red button to make the J-Drive work" that most people use it for?? :?

What rust said - and also a Ref may allow technical skills to 'boost' things like drive ratings - more Gs (and more power to PP for more Gs), closer (<100D) and faster Jump, perhaps even extra Jump parsec range...

 

[IanBruntlett]

"In Germany, if I introduce myself to the new neighbours as an engineer, they show me their loveliest daughter, in Britain (and the USA?) they show me their washing machine" From unknown British engineer
Egil

And if I introduce myself to people as a Software Engineer they either ask me to 1) fix their broadband problem 2) fix a Microsoft Windows problem 3) fix their PC

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Ok,
We just wrapped up his character today.
As are all the players in my campaign, I am limiting them to 3 terms max,
He took 1 term as a scientist focusing on space science and genetics (during which he rolled an event which allowed him the choice of testing something illegal. He chose illegal but performed the test on himself rather than on the victims. (I turns out he was using dangerous experimental psi-drugs intended to permanently remove psionic powers from captured psions, but when he took the dose, it had the reverse effect on himself and he gained the powers!) He gained 2 enemies because of that. He mustered out with rolling up a freaking LAB SHIP!
Since the "men in black" came to get him after his "accident" the tested and introduced him to the Imperial Psi-corps. He the spent 2 successful terms as a Psi-Agent, got some more cool skills and mustered out with 10K credits and sub-dermal armor.
My game starts this Tuesday with 5 people and maybe 1 more if I can handle that many.

 

[barnest2]

Remember that the lab ship benefit isn't an actual lab ship, but is 5 shares towards it... otherwise that's pretty cool

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Yeah, he won't be able to get the rest of the group to go for the lab ship.
I am currently designing a 400 ton "adventure" class ship for them based on something I had in the GURPS and T20 rules.
J3
M3
10-12 staterooms
60 tons cargo or so
Still working out the details
I'll post it once it's complete
It's just kinda cool that since 1981 - 82 I've never seen a player roll up a Lab ship!
So one of my players has 5 ship shares and the other has 2 shares. Tuesday there may be more!
Players are chomping at the bit!

 

[barnest2]

It'll be hard to keep profit with that little cargo space. Unless you are gifting them the ship in some way?

 

[Jak Nazryth]

nope.
It will simply be hard for them to make payments. :twisted:

To be honest most players I encounter have an expectation of the "Star Wars" version of ships.
A ship is just a ride to your next adventure. No fuel, no cost, no worries, and you can travel halfway across the galaxy within one or two scenes in movie terms.

I already have a 200 TON ship of similar design (long range scout) already written, but they want a something that has "more stuff" to allow for a combination of exploration/adventure.

I'll be finished with the write up of the 400 ton later this afternoon and will publish for general comment and suggestions. (Deck plans won't be available until later in the week)
But remember, the reason for this ship is for my players to have fun running down adventures, plot hooks, basically playing Firefly in a Traveller setting. What they do not want is a slow moving short ranged merchant ship with large cargo bays and lots of passengers to make a living, but just enough to cargo space and 2 to 4 high passenger staterooms at most to help pay for fuel and upkeep on their way to what ever sub-sector adventure is calling them.
But as GM I will enforce ship payments or send bounty hunters after them if their payments get to far behind!

 

[locarno24]

I'll elaborate. You wouldn't be hired onto container cargo ship as THE Electronics Engineer with Level-0 Engineers under your command. In Mgt that would take a minimum of Engineer (Electronics) - 1. Eng - 2 for a large one.

Frankly a -2 for even a fairly small one. My housemate is doing the Merchant Navy engineering officer's course at the moment and I can compare and contrast with the contents of the 'normal' mechanical degree I did. Less than degree level will get you on the ship*, but it certainly won't get you minions. The latter, admittedly, is mostly experience rather than training, but MGT skill levels bundle both into the same score.

One thing to note is that just because Mongoose use Engineer (Electronics) for a skill name, it doesn't mean that they necessarily means what you** think it does.

Mechanic is at the monkey-see-monkey-do end of the scale, and Physical Science (Electronics) at the theoretical end. Engineer (Electronics) falls somewhere between the two, but it's a blurred line at best.


* 'Design' in this concept usually means 'The gromit is broken and we don't have a spare. Turn up something that looks the same on this lathe' rather than sit-down concept design.

** A phrase intended to be sweeping and apply to any reader. What one person thinks falls under one skill, another person may place elsewhere. Just look at the confused mess that is "Systems Engineering" for a perfect example of this.