Central Supply Catalog Errata

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Im going to say this is kind of a case of just because you can do something doesn’t mean it effective. Considering at the same TL you get a Fighter with M-7 and a ship pulse laser with AP2 and High Yield plus Improved Military sensors, a ECM suit, and 4 Vehicle Hard Points capable of carrying one Vehicle missile/bomb each(tho you might lose some maneuver rating). I’ll have to post my conversion of the Rampart TL 15 imperial Fighter later as well as the actual stats of the TL 13 I just mentioned.

Also when you compare you TL 13 CCPGs 500 meter range to the fighters ship pulse lasers range of 10 Kilometer (that close range for ship range bands).

Truth be told with the weapon restrictions (no AP, divide damage by 10, way to short range) the only advantage I can really see is the cost.

You do realize that this fighter could simply replace the burst laser firmpoint with the pulse laser firmpoint (and upgrade either to Intense Focus for the AP 2), while still retaining all of the dogfighting weapons?

 

[tytalan]

The B5 Traveller version of the Starfury had 4 weapons that did the equivalent damage (1D per weapon and AP 3), while the Heavy did 2D plus AP 3

Any spacecraft with Armour 6+? Most fighters have <6 armor. Most civilian vessels have less.

You’re right but most paramilitary ships have a minimum of 3 with the SDS pulling 13. Fighters are not designed to go against civilian vessels and the average armor of 2+ on a fighter is still likely to take little or no damage.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

You’re right but most paramilitary ships have a minimum of 3 with the SDS pulling 13. Fighters are not designed to go against civilian vessels and the average armor of 2+ on a fighter is still likely to take little or no damage.

Lots of assumptions there.
This is a dogfighter, not an anti-ship fighter. Also works well against missiles and torpedoes.
This fighter design was considered as used against civilian vessels.
Not sure how you calculate little to no damage against fighters with low armour and <8 hull points, but I don’t see it.

The SDB is over-armoured and over-gunned for its size; but these fighters can screen its missile salvoes effectively too.

 

[tytalan]

You do realize that this fighter could simply replace the burst laser firmpoint with the pulse laser firmpoint (and upgrade either to Intense Focus for the AP 2), while still retaining all of the dogfighting weapons?

Never said it couldn’t but that’s not the point. You were talking about replacing ship weapons with hand held weapons. And give8ng the burst laser intense focus is questionable at best. The dogfighting weapons really aren’t that good your ammo is very limited and their penetration is questionable. I link that you are thinking out side the box I just don’t think it would work out as well as you seem to think. Now in a ground attack role your fighter makes a bit more sense

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Never said it couldn’t but that’s not the point. You were talking about replacing ship weapons with hand held weapons. And give8ng the burst laser intense focus is questionable at best. The dogfighting weapons really aren’t that good your ammo is very limited and their penetration is questionable. I link that you are thinking out side the box I just don’t think it would work out as well as you seem to think. Now in a ground attack role your fighter makes a bit more sense

How is giving the burst laser intense focus questionable?

I am not replacing any ship weapons; I am adding weapons for a very specific engagement style (dogfighting).

I have a 200-ton vessel with a Small Murian Pulse Laser Bay, 2 Ion Cannon Barbettes, Thrust 9+3, Forced Breaching Apparatus and no less than 100 CPPGs for close in action (aka dogfighting). Yes, it gets scary when it gets close.

 

[tytalan]

Lots of assumptions there.
This is a dogfighter, not an anti-ship fighter. Also works well against missiles and torpedoes.
This fighter design was considered as used against civilian vessels.
Not sure how you calculate little to no damage against fighters with low armour and <8 hull points, but I don’t see it.

The SDB is over-armoured and over-gunned for its size; but these fighters can screen its missile salvoes effectively too.

Dogfighers need to be as fast as possible this fighter is a bit slow M-4 vs M-7 of most TL 13 Fighters
Fighters are war weapons and are not normally used to attack civilians
Considering a standard TL 12 fighter has better sensors longer range and half again the thrust. Your odds of doing damage are minimal at best add 3 armor and your only option is to replace the laser. The main issue is that the CCPGs are very limited in range have very little ammo and your thrust for a TL 13 fighter intercepter (that’s a dog fighter) is very weak.
Now in an anti missile or torpedo role it does a little better but only if it stays close to the carrier to rearm.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Dogfighers need to be as fast as possible this fighter is a bit slow M-4 vs M-7 of most TL 13 Fighters
Fighters are war weapons and are not normally used to attack civilians
Considering a standard TL 12 fighter has better sensors longer range and half again the thrust. Your odds of doing damage are minimal at best add 3 armor and your only option is to replace the laser. The main issue is that the CCPGs are very limited in range have very little ammo and your thrust for a TL 13 fighter intercepter (that’s a dog fighter) is very weak.
Now in an anti missile or torpedo role it does a little better but only if it stays close to the carrier to rearm.

This is Thrust 6+4 (M+R) = 10 (aka quite fast)
Not necessarily. Fast boats and technicals are groundscale versions of fighters. This hits hard, fast and you could argue that no ammo is needed due to the fusion plant.

 

[tytalan]

How is giving the burst laser intense focus questionable?

I am not replacing any ship weapons; I am adding weapons for a very specific engagement style (dogfighting).

I have a 200-ton vessel with a Small Murian Pulse Laser Bay, 2 Ion Cannon Barbettes, Thrust 9+3, Forced Breaching Apparatus and no less than 100 CPPGs for close in action (aka dogfighting). Yes, it gets scary when it gets close.

The rules for intense focus are for ship weapons so questionable when used for others

You keep calling this a Dogfighter but I just don’t see it. Yes you have a close in punch but you don’t have half the speed or agility for a TL 13 Space Superiority (ie dogfighter) fighter (M4 vs M7). You say the fighter is design as anti civilian ship which again is not a Superiority Fighters role (merchant ships don’t dogfight). You give it a secondary role as anti missile which again while you have the firepower for that role you don’t have the speed. Now you can say that all of this is to save cost as I’d probably understand a backwater world building this but you don’t present it as that.

The profile this fighter does fit is that of a pirate ambusher. You don’t need the speed you got the fire power at least vs civilian ships and it’s cheapish.

Dogfighting is about speed and agility firepower is not really a dogfighters thing. Their target are other fighters not civilians or even paramilitary ships. A dogfighter doesn’t need a bunch of different weapons or bombs it needs one good weapon and possibly 2-4 anti fighter missiles

 

[tytalan]

This is Thrust 6+4 (M+R) = 10 (aka quite fast)
Not necessarily. Fast boats and technicals are groundscale versions of fighters. This hits hard, fast and you could argue that no ammo is needed due to the fusion plant.

I discounted the reaction drive since you’re killing your pilot with it. 4 Gs is no joke. Especially at ship time scales. Only really useful as an approach bust. I real life fighter pilot can pull as much as 9gs for short periods 10 to 60 seconds and up to 6 gs for longer up to 30 minutes but even 3 gs can be fatal for longer time frame 3 to 6 hours

Again if your looking for cheap than it make sense.

But either way why would you go after civilians that’s just not a fighters role

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

The rules for intense focus are for ship weapons so questionable when used for others

You keep calling this a Dogfighter but I just don’t see it. Yes you have a close in punch but you don’t have half the speed or agility for a TL 13 Space Superiority (ie dogfighter) fighter (M4 vs M7). You say the fighter is design as anti civilian ship which again is not a Superiority Fighters role (merchant ships don’t dogfight). You give it a secondary role as anti missile which again while you have the firepower for that role you don’t have the speed. Now you can say that all of this is to save cost as I’d probably understand a backwater world building this but you don’t present it as that.

The profile this fighter does fit is that of a pirate ambusher. You don’t need the speed you got the fire power at least vs civilian ships and it’s cheapish.

Dogfighting is about speed and agility firepower is not really a dogfighters thing. Their target are other fighters not civilians or even paramilitary ships. A dogfighter doesn’t need a bunch of different weapons or bombs it needs one good weapon and possibly 2-4 anti fighter missiles

1) Burst lasers are a shipscale weapon [[JTAS, Vol 1, pg 57]]

2) I think I understand the disconnect now. This craft is built to use the dogfighting rules vs the shipscale combat rules: spacecraft
fighting at ranges of less than 10km use the normal six second combat round rather than the six minute round normally used for space combat. This includes taking advantage of the Called Shots rule on page 169 of the Core Rulebook 2022 Update, which finds firepower to be advantageous.

3) Sure, pirate ambusher or space station guard dog. Call it a snubfighter and throw 20 of them at a space station...

4) You describe one vision of dogfighting; I have a slightly different one. Isn't Traveller grand?

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

I discounted the reaction drive since you’re killing your pilot with it. 4 Gs is no joke. Especially at ship time scales. Only really useful as an approach bust. I real life fighter pilot can pull as much as 9gs for short periods 10 to 60 seconds and up to 6 gs for longer up to 30 minutes but even 3 gs can be fatal for longer time frame 3 to 6 hours

Again if your looking for cheap than it make sense.

But either way why would you go after civilians that’s just not a fighters role

I think I understand the disconnect now. This craft is built to use the dogfighting rules vs the shipscale combat rules: spacecraft fighting at ranges of less than 10km use the normal six second combat round rather than the six minute round normally used for space combat.

You might want to review what HG2024 says about G-LOC (pg 47) and the effects of a liquid filled G-Suit (CSC2023, pg 106) and G-Tolerance Drugs (CSC2023 pg 93). Uncompensated 4G's is nothing with these tools and a Pilot-1.

Ask the Somalis and Houthis why they send small boats after cargo vessels; same reason (and Traveller merchant ships have bigger guns).

 

[tytalan]

Ask the Somalis and Houthis why they send small boats after cargo vessels; same reason (and Traveller merchant ships have bigger guns).

Again Pirates or in the case Houthis terrorist. Not exactly supporting the use of fighters against civilians by a legitimate government.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Did my reply get erased?

 

[Condottiere]

Are you sure you managed to post?

Internet interruptions tend to do that.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

My point was that the Somali pirates considered themselves representative of the tribal governments, acting as de facto Coast Guard against European aggression (French vessels over fishing and dumping waste in their waters). Houthis also started as a popular uprising, same as the FARC in Colombia.

One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

 

[Condottiere]

Until you monetize it.

Somali pirates were subcontracted to hijack commercial vessels, with, I heard, foreign parties brokering hostage negotiations.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Until you monetize it.

Somali pirates were subcontracted to hijack commercial vessels, with, I heard, foreign parties brokering hostage negotiations.

Then they become private military companies; end state is the same

 

[tytalan]

My point was that the Somali pirates considered themselves representative of the tribal governments, acting as de facto Coast Guard against European aggression (French vessels over fishing and dumping waste in their waters). Houthis also started as a popular uprising, same as the FARC in Colombia.

One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Attacking civilians is globally considered Terrorist activity. Freedom fighters attack military or government not civilians. Both of the groups you mentioned have attacked civilians and are considered Terrorist.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Attacking civilians is globally considered Terrorist activity. Freedom fighters attack military or government not civilians. Both of the groups you mentioned have attacked civilians and are considered Terrorist.

There are always two sides to the story, and that makes for better role-playing games and detailed world building.

I spent nearly two decades IRL involved in real world terrorists in Europe, South America, North Africa and the Middle East; let’s just say our perspective is different.

 

[tytalan]

There are always two sides to the story, and that makes for better role-playing games and detailed world building.

I spent nearly two decades IRL involved in real world terrorists in Europe, South America, North Africa and the Middle East; let’s just say our perspective is different.

So you support attacking and killing civilians in order to terrorize people so they will bow to your demands? Yea I guess we do see things differently. I suppose you supported the bombing of the twin towers too? I’m sorry but I can’t support terrorists. While I agree that there are two sides to any story actions still speak louder than words.