Centauri Fleet Broken?

[Da Boss]

Minbari mini beams hitting on 4's against everyone will increase their power and may reduce the importance of hull 6 (as do the new beam rules)?

The problem here is that the indications are that most ships are having their beam dice axed because beams are supposedly now more effective (in many ways the 4+ hit balances itself out against the broad range of targets and makes beams no more or less effective than they ever were).

Given how few AD minbari already get (they dont even get any until raid level, and even then 2AD on one ship), axing them further is a bit of a joke for a fleet which we see in the show exclusively using beams (the smattering of pulsars from the whitestars dont count, because apparently that's not a minbo ship )

Play around with the 4+ to hit - it does change beams - you tend more than before to either get a miss / light graze or brutal slice of many hits - even from low numbers of dice. Has anyone official said the Minbari are loosing lots of dice - I think the reductions (in power) have been mentioned mainly in relation to the Centauri.

 

[Alexb83]

Nothing's been said on this board, no - but then nothing really has been said on the board at all except for random 'hints'. I'm just going by conversations I've had with several playtesters off the board.

 

[cordas]

Hopefully these broken fleet witch hunts will disappear when 2nd ed comes along. Or at least, the Centauri won't be the target any more...

Errr... I am fully expecting a huge rash of complaints that such and such ship is broken beyond all known boudaries, and maybe slightly fewer complaints (but wouldn't bet on it) that if your opponent is playing the bright pink and purple race that you might as well conceed the game before you put your models on the table.

Hopefully within a few weeks these will die down as people learn the new strengths and weaknesses of the new fleets, and how the new rules will work in relation with the new fleets.

I am sure there will be some broken ships, as no matter how good the play testing there will be players who devise previously unimagined tactics that will favour one ship above all others.

I personally hope there will still be a pecking order in the fleets....

I hope that the Minbari still hold the number slot and are closely followed by the Centari, with Narn and the Earthers fighting it out for 3rd. As long as all fleets can fight each other and put on a respectable show I will be happy.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I realise everyone will cry "broken!" seconds after looking at the new books, but with some sense (a long shot, I know) and a few days time I hope people will stop moaning that XYZ fleet is broken, unfair, etc and actually try playing them...

 

[katadder]

Minbari mini beams hitting on 4's against everyone will increase their power and may reduce the importance of hull 6 (as do the new beam rules)?

The problem here is that the indications are that most ships are having their beam dice axed because beams are supposedly now more effective (in many ways the 4+ hit balances itself out against the broad range of targets and makes beams no more or less effective than they ever were).

Given how few AD minbari already get (they dont even get any until raid level, and even then 2AD on one ship), axing them further is a bit of a joke for a fleet which we see in the show exclusively using beams (the smattering of pulsars from the whitestars dont count, because apparently that's not a minbo ship )

Play around with the 4+ to hit - it does change beams - you tend more than before to either get a miss / light graze or brutal slice of many hits - even from low numbers of dice. Has anyone official said the Minbari are loosing lots of dice - I think the reductions (in power) have been mentioned mainly in relation to the Centauri.

with luck you can always get any number of hits with beams, just ask LDTD one time about how a WS of mine got 6 beam his on his dargan.

as for beams changing to 4+ to hit, not huge increase in power anywhere:

1e 6AD SAP against hull:
4 - hits on 2s to start so 5 hits, then 3.3, then 1.65, then less than 1 (0.54) so around 10 hits.
5- hits on 3s so 4 hits, then 2, then less than 1 (0.66) so call it 6 hits
6- hits on 4s so 3 hits, then 1, then less than 1 (0.16) so 4 hits

2e 6AD beam against hull:
4 - hits on 4s so 3 hits, then 1.5 then 0.75 - around 4-6 hits
5- as above around 4-6 hits
6- as above around 4-6 hits

take into account that beams also cannot CAF in 2e and they are not as powerful as previous, they are just less worried about what armour you bring. this in turn makes hull 4 ships more viable.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm, I did not say they were more (or less) powerful - just different - the mini beams are the ones I think are better now - 4+ to hit now.

My main point was similar to yours - that hull 6 becomes less important than it is now.

playing with the new beam rules just seem to find it tends towards extremes (either way) more than before.................

not unhappy with any of this................

 

[katadder]

but again minibeams are only betetr aganist hull 6, same against hull 5 and worse against hull 4.
I had a post in here about beating minbari with a mainly hull 4 fleet. then the minbari had SAP beams and AP mini beams, with 2e they would only hit me on 4s anyway.

obviously you could spam hull 4 ships againt minbari, which would work for 1 off games but might annoy your opponents after a while.
but try that in a campaign, or a tourney, where suddenly you are facing centauri with their DD TL ion cannons (pointed out in another thread) or the new narn e-mines? hull 4 not gonna do much for you then.

 

[Alexb83]

On average then, beams at 4+ are no better or worse than they ever were - so why reduce AD on ships that had them before?

 

[katadder]

dont think they are IIRC, is thats whats said in the S&P article? some ships are even gaining beam dice. others might lose a little i guess if they had only AP beams or just beams without AP or SAP but apart from that. hmm will have to look see.

 

[Alexb83]

Personally I think the tack that should be taken is that the main difference between beams in races now are the DD/TD/QD traits, and the Precise trait, and of course paramount is range and AD.

Shadows, Vorlons, ISA and Minbari should be top of the beam pile in terms of what goodies they get (they have the most advanced beam tech), Narn, Brakiri and then Earth, and then the rest. Centauri showed no evidence of beams, and the weapons that the narn said they stole and modified following the occupation could just've been their arrays/pulse weapons.

 

[cordas]

but again minibeams are only betetr aganist hull 6,

Does this mean that Mini-Beams are also going to be hitting on a 4+ irrespective of hull? I thought that was only for beam weapons.

 

[katadder]

what do u think a mini beam is? its just a mini version, it doesnt have the power for continous fire so it cant cut right through but the same rules apply otherwise.

this is mentioned under beam rules in Matts 2e preview thing in S&P.

 

[cordas]

Doh! should pay more attention when i read something.

 

[Locutus9956]

Just to hop back in briefly, Id add that its not the fact of lots of beam dice alone (as noted, EA can match this) Rather its the fact theyre long range and forward arc. It's not that Boresights are that much harder to bring to bear really but the crucial HUGELY important difference is that, except in exceptional circumstances, boresight beams cant CAF, normal ones CAN.

 

[Da Boss]

what do u think a mini beam is? its just a mini version, it doesnt have the power for continous fire so it cant cut right through but the same rules apply otherwise.

this is mentioned under beam rules in Matts 2e preview thing in S&P.

So should it benefit from CAF / Scouting?

 

[Da Boss]

Just to hop back in briefly, Id add that its not the fact of lots of beam dice alone (as noted, EA can match this) Rather its the fact theyre long range and forward arc. It's not that Boresights are that much harder to bring to bear really but the crucial HUGELY important difference is that, except in exceptional circumstances, boresight beams cant CAF, normal ones CAN.

Agreed - As I understand it in 2nd Ed, not a problem, no CAF for any beams.

 

[Da Boss]

On average then, beams at 4+ are no better or worse than they ever were - so why reduce AD on ships that had them before?

Has that been stated anywhere officially? I think some people suggested on the forum it should be looked at for some races - including Minbari but that was about it....................

 

[Da Boss]

but again minibeams are only betetr aganist hull 6, same against hull 5 and worse against hull 4..

Again not arguing - just saying that in general it should make hull 6 less important (though still needed as noted against many wepaons) but the predominace of hull 6 was mentioned as one of the problems with Centauri............Minbari as noted in the S+P article now care very little what armor you take....................especailly if you can't se em!!!

The other problems being Prefect - gone, Tertius - hopefully going and maybe the range on the beams - the latter has not been disclosed to my knowledge.

Again all good things .................

 

[Ripple]

First comment on the thread topic -

Centauri are a bit broken by a few ships being too strong. It doesn't matter if you only take a one or two, it still and edge that is not paid for. That they, and a few others, can take the long range forward beam weapons is a big deal cause they can go for larger ships and worry less about 'sinking'. The boresighted have to 'buy down' to get enough ships on the table to guarantee they can concentrate some firepower. Under Arm. not as much of an issue, but still there.

Second comment on the 4+ beams hit rule -

Played around with it quite a bit the other night, and you do get much bigger swings more often. Both ways. That left me feeling that we were favoring luck much more and tactics less.

The analysis above of beams hitting about the same isn't really correct. It would be more accurate to say that SAP Beams are about the same, AP beams get a boost and just plain Beam gets a huge boost. Mini beam is a bit different do to no re-rolls but its still a big boost, less of one if you have ap on the mini (I think most do) as you take a hit vs hull 4.

Several league races get upgraded, Brakiri in particular get a big boost.

Just wanted to be clear that this is not a case where we are just trading a bit of performance here and there...we are really changing both how the game will feel in general and radically changing how certain fleets will interact.

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

First comment on the thread topic -

Centauri are a bit broken by a few ships being too strong. It doesn't matter if you only take a one or two, it still and edge that is not paid for. That they, and a few others, can take the long range forward beam weapons is a big deal cause they can go for larger ships and worry less about 'sinking'. The boresighted have to 'buy down' to get enough ships on the table to guarantee they can concentrate some firepower. Under Arm. not as much of an issue, but still there.

Second comment on the 4+ beams hit rule -

Played around with it quite a bit the other night, and you do get much bigger swings more often. Both ways. That left me feeling that we were favoring luck much more and tactics less.

The analysis above of beams hitting about the same isn't really correct. It would be more accurate to say that SAP Beams are about the same, AP beams get a boost and just plain Beam gets a huge boost. Mini beam is a bit different do to no re-rolls but its still a big boost, less of one if you have ap on the mini (I think most do) as you take a hit vs hull 4.

Several league races get upgraded, Brakiri in particular get a big boost.

Just wanted to be clear that this is not a case where we are just trading a bit of performance here and there...we are really changing both how the game will feel in general and radically changing how certain fleets will interact.

Ripple

Completely agree but Minbeams still get rerolls due to CAF / Scouting rolls - Greg mentioned in a Thread..............Beams do seem to either virtually miss or cut you in half - supose more like the show...?