Centauri and Crack

[tneva82]

Dargan is battle level, isn't lumbering, moves fast (12) and has stealth. and one of the few ships that is heavy front arc,even for the centauri. sorta like a Drazi ship in that regard

except not being a primitive race we don't do boresight :wink:

And we have those lovely rutarians.

I love dargan. Fast, stealthy, packs one heck of a wallop, 2 stands of rutarian...Only thing it does lack is the agile which makes coming about hard without SA. Not good when you have cleared out enemy in front of you and now need to deal with enemy behind you before you get blown apart ;-)

 

[Locutus9956]

You left out the best part of the Dargan, it looks so damn cool

 

[katadder]

yep especially hung up in the queens chamber of my hive (at least the one captured).
have to say i always loved dargans and generally took them over other raid choices at 1e even though they were worse so now its always great to have them. with dargans and liatis am afraid my primuses got shelved unless its a big game.

 

[Pennybags]

I figured I should reply to this as I am the Centauri player in question.

On turn 5 of our campaign I fought three battles, two against Drakh and 1 against the Dilgar.

First battle, 4 point Raid Annihilation against Drakh. I took 1 Dargon and 2 Magnus, Drakh took 2 Ma'Cu. Turn 1 I destroyed the first Ma'cu with fire from the Dargon and 1 Magnus, Ma'Cu failed stealth against the Dargon. Turn 2 I destroyed the Other Ma'Cu with fire from all my ships and destroyed one of his launched heavy Raiders with side arc fire. I took a total of 18 damage on my Magnuses from return fire. Remaining Raider runs for the edge I let it go. Final tally 2 decrewed Ma'Cu and 1 destroyed Heavy Raider verses 5 RR worth of repairs to my Magnus.

Second battle; Patrol level Recon Run versus Drakh. I took 2 Demos and 1 Kutai, Drakh takes 2 scouts and 2 Heavy Raiders. Turn 1 I scan both Raiders and 1 scout, and then a Demos destroyed the other scout. I don't believe I took any damage the one Heavy Raider in arc missed with both beams. Games ends with all ships have been scanned. Finally tally 1 Drakh scout destroyed versus no damage to me.

Third battle; 5 Point Patrol Annihilation versus Dilgar. I took 1 Morgrath, 1 Maximus and a flight of Rutarians. He takes 1 Rhoric, a Drazi Solarhawk got from a property and 1 flight of fighters. Turn 1 the Solarhawk gets three hits on the Maximus and does 9 points of damage and crew. Return fire from the Maximus and Morgrath does half damage to the Solarhawk (he used fighters as interceptors and rolled 2 1's). Turn 2 Solarhawk killed by Rutarians, Rhoric half dead from combined fire, all Dilgar fire stopped by interceptors. Turn 3 all Dilgar fire stopped by interceptors, Rhoric killed by combined fire. Finally tally 1 Rhoric and 1 Solarhawk versus 3 RR worth of repairs.

So far in the campaign I have fought 7 battles, total I have lost 3 ships two Darkners and a Kutai and one of the Darkners died because I flew it through an asteroid field. Admittedly we have been playing only low level scenarios the largest being a 4 point Raid and I have been rolling lights out all campaign.

For the most part I'm going to stay out of the whole Centauri are too powerful debate, but I will say the Demos needs to come down a notch at least lose the interceptor maybe 2 attack dice on the Ion Cannons as well. As it stands there is never a reason to take a Vorchan over a Demos, and when that happens the ships are not balanced against each other.

And to the person who mentioned you should have seen Centauri last edition, they did. I played Centauri in our first two campaigns under Armageddon rules and quit playing them after that.

 

[emperorpenguin]

but I will say the Demos needs to come down a notch at least lose the interceptor maybe 2 attack dice on the Ion Cannons as well. .

the Demos can't lose the interceptor as it's the only Centauri vessel we see using defensive fire in the show.

 

[Locutus9956]

Right then:

First off Drakh vs Centauri, first off complaining about something being protected by interceptors to any degree when playing drakh, a fleet that to my knowledge doesnt field a SINGLE INTERCEPTABLE WEAPON is whining for whinings sake. It wouldnt matter if the Centauri had 900 interceptors on every ship since you fire beams at them with every shot!!!

Secondly: Agile, centauri have some agile ships, whoop de do, so do drakh ok you dont have as many but then again you dont have as many different ships period. The bulk of a drakh fleet should be raiders which are ALL AGILE. Its not about how many different agile choices you have ita bout how agile things are in general. And if somone could point out (aside from the Liati) any agile Centauri ship above skirmish?....

Secondly drakh dont have interceptors your right. Your raiders get DODGE instead which is frankly better (and GEG as well). It sounds to me like your going too top heavy for your drakh if your getting outmaneuvered. The raiders are the core of your fleet!

Ok now on to Centauri weaknesses:

1) Their ships with a few exceptions have little or no actual defences. Some have 1 interceptor, a couple have stealth, a few carry one or two fighters or have a die or two of antifighter. MOSTLY though they are all guns no guts. Centauri ships really cant stand up to much of a beating when you actually start hammering them.

2) Most of the nasty little attack ships which are the mainstay of 2nd ed Centauri are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to fighter attack, low hull, no aft or even side guns in most cases and no carried fighter flights and generally at MOST one point of antifighter (except the maximus of course but thats somewhat lacking in offecnce imo). Now ok not eveyrone has the 'fighter gank' option but a good volley of fire will make mincemeat of most of the 'nasty small centauri ships'. And frnakly its only really at skirmish the centauri seem to me to outshine some other fleets at battle and war Id actualyl say they fall short of the EA and Narn now (and definitely the Minbari!)

3) As for the demos, well, personally I WOULD like to see it lose 2 AD, so as to make it in my eyes about even with the Vorchan as at the moment I see it as a clearly better ship having about the same firepower and an essentialyl free interceptor. But I absolutely would not want to see it lose that interceptor as the Demos DOES shoot down incoming fire on screen

 

[Triggy]

First off Drakh vs Centauri, first off complaining about something being protected by interceptors to any degree when playing drakh, a fleet that to my knowledge doesnt field a SINGLE INTERCEPTABLE WEAPON is whining for whinings sake. It wouldnt matter if the Centauri had 900 interceptors on every ship since you fire beams at them with every shot!!!

Erm, aside from the Light and Heavy Raiders, every Drakh ship has interceptable weaponry...

 

[H]

First off Drakh vs Centauri, first off complaining about something being protected by interceptors to any degree when playing drakh, a fleet that to my knowledge doesnt field a SINGLE INTERCEPTABLE WEAPON is whining for whinings sake. It wouldnt matter if the Centauri had 900 interceptors on every ship since you fire beams at them with every shot!!!

Erm, aside from the Light and Heavy Raiders, every Drakh ship has interceptable weaponry...

maybe he's getting a bit overemotive, lets clarify. ...

All PRIMARY weapons apart from the scout, are non interceptable (oh, and maybe the new patrol cruiser, I dunno offhand) all SECONDARY weapons are interceptable

although i keep looking at this thread and wondering what all the fuss is about? ok, Centauri are relatively tough... if you want to fly into their weapon range. I think almost every fleet outranges them, mainly with beams, if people are loosing regularly to Centauri, it's not because they are broken, it's because A_ The Centauri player is a great tactician and plays his fleet to it's strengths, B_ the centauri player is a lucky son of a gun on dice rolls (conversely his opponents rolls may suck) or C_the opposing player is either tactically unsound, or has selected the wrong ships.

 

[Target]

Not having Drakh but taking more raiders would be good idea.
Also think those raiders should have a tad more firepower though. They seem a little wimpy to me. Am thinking of getting one of these ships.
The first battle maybe 1 Carrier (4 heavy raiders),1 Fast destroyer, 2 Light Raiders, i see what they were trying to do but centauri fleet is to fast for them to get the raiders out.
Think two many big ships.
Not sure about fight 2
Fight 3
Maybe a Garoush & Jaskar ( fighter heavy fleet)
Targath & fighters
2 Rohric & fighters or 2 Omelos & fighters.
Agree about Demos going to 8AD.
Just think the Dilgar should concertrate on more fighters, Drakh more on raiders.
Maybe they could try the breaching pod thing for one off suprise as well.
The best bit about Centauri fleet is they are pretty forgiving.
The Morgath is as bad is a Vorchan/Demos in my eyes but still i loss all 3 of campaign games on sunday mainly vs EA 3rd age. Damn dice.
The pure damage output of a Vorchan is a good reason to take it over Demos if you can get multiple targets ( 1 each round i mean).
I see there was no sentri's maybe i should try that the have been losing all my games with terrible rolls. They don't hit anything or intercept.

 

[Sulfurdown]

if you want to fly into their weapon range. I think almost every fleet outranges them, mainly with beams

Drakh don't unless you push up to the right combinations at Raid. And a 20" range isn't all that easy to get out of and still be able to operate, especially since the V/D are agile. The pride and joy of the Drakh - the "ship-killer" Heavy raider - is slower then the V/D and they are just as agile and if what I'm seeing is right the HR will do about 1/2 the damage of the Demos at a substantially shorter range then the Demos will return (accounting for GEG and dodge).

It really looks like the Demos and Vorchan Ion Cannons got swapped in their entries. All things between the two equal except the swapped PA for LBT, the Demos gets more Ion Cannon AD and an Interceptor and is still Skirmish.

 

[Silvereye]

I have found Centauri a powerful fleet. It floats like a butterfly and hits like a breeze block. But carries a bit of a glass jaw. I'm running about 50/50 against a Narn fleet. Now the Narn have the beef to stand up to the Centauri while they close into their I REALLY have more guns then you range. I can see why a lot of other fleets will fall over while trying this. Double Damage, Twin-Linked is not nice to be on the receiving end of.

Exploiting that glass jaw is the difficult thing if the Centauri player knows how to hide it.

What I have found that can work for you are:
Fighters, to exploit those weak arcs.
Terrain (though this can equally work against you), being able to get something between you and the Ion Cannons while you position is a bonus.
Don't try and nibble at the fleet. Hammer them until that one ship cannot shoot back at you (either dead or disabled) then move onto the next one. You need to remove their offensive abilities ASAP. Fighters can be used to harass the disabled ships.
You will take hits, try and give him the targets you can live without.
Don't feel you have to be able to attack his ships every turn. Use the short range and limited arcs against them. If you can avoid being shot while you manoeuvre into a better position thats great.
Potentially treat Vorchans as if they were fighters in terms of movement. That way they wont surprise you.

 

[Jetbaker]

All the input is appreciated whether it is negative or positive. It makes me take a look at things from a unique point of view.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

You're exaggerating the issue. The Vorchan is the Centauri's fastest ship at speed 14". Most of the rest are around 10"-12". Most have no interceptors. If you think a single interceptor die on a handful of Centauri skirmish ships and 2 on the Maximus is "good enough to stop most damage" you're either seeing some bizarre dice rolling or you've given up before you've tried.

The Centauri fleet's weaknesses have been clearly laid out for you. Exploit them. Come back for advice if you have more problems, don't rant about how great they are while obscuring the issue with exaggeration.

Dave has a very good point here. It's quite easy to blame your own losses on another fleets seemingly apparent invincibility; but I can assure you as a centauri fanatic that they do have quite EXPLOITABLE weaknesses. Most notably is the very weak rear facing armament, meaning that a significant force of enemy vessels in the rear, is potentially devastating. I can tell you with first hand experience that a Sharoos class with three tigara escorts and a Tinashi are more than capable of ripping apart 3 primus with covran scouts and maximus escorting. However, and I'm sorry if this sounds nasty, but to make use of this weakness [unless using the hyperspace rules, which is how I got nailed] then you have to use something called tactics. Believe it or not, but ACTA is a very well balanced tactical game, if you are playing it right. If what you are after is a line up and shoot the crap out of each other game, go play warhammer 40 gay.

Now as most of the other guys seem to have already said, you either have an exceptionally good centauri player, who has an excellent grasp of fleet tactics and an indepth knowledge of his own fleets abilities, OR the rest of you aren't that good. Sorry if that sounds harsh guys but its the cold unadulterated truth. If you guys do have a sound grasp of fleet tactics, then I unreservedly apologise to you all for being that harsh, but sometimes you gotta be cruel to be kind.

If my opponent had lined his sharoos, tinashi and tigaras up against my fleet, he would have been playing to my strengths and not his own, and in turn, my knowledge of the centauri fleet, plus my own half decent grasp of fleet tactics would have ground them to dust. I had plenty of stealth beating tools around to counter the biggest problem with minbari. But you see, my opponent played to his strengths, outflanked me and got into my rear quarters, and did lots of damage. I don't moan about that loss, because it was a bloody good display of fleet tactics, and he deserved the win totally.

You can't blame the rules testers for the centauri rampage in your campaign dude, you and your commrades just need to get your heads together, work out where is killing you and play to your own strengths. There are plenty of additional SA's for you to use, such as run silent, all power to engines, come about and concentrate firepower, to enable your ships to further enhance their strengths and help negate their weaknesses.

Dude feel free to PM me if you wanna talk through some tactics, I use my centauri quite adeptly[apart from this one loss] and I know plenty enough on how to defeat a good centauri player . . . coz I am one.

 

[Fiztbane_65]

well, i had another huge reply typed out, but after reading thru it i figured id erase it and just sum it up.....

yes, the centauri player in our campaign is good. that fact isnt being denied. and, after reading what some of you have posted, it seems that the rest of us in the campaign horribly suck at this game. the reason i say that is when we finally got the 2ed books, and then started playing...even before we started the campaign, in ALL of the fights the centauri were in, the never lost.

so, i guess the bottom line is this.....

Centauri player is a god.
The rest of us are horrible players.

maybe thats it, maybe i do suck at this game and im just in denial.

 

[Voronesh]

Or the Cent guy rolls like crazy.

Trust me i have whole games seen decided by dice, and NOT by tactics, sometimes repeatedly. When a Prefect blows is the only ship sent to intercept a Apollo with Hyperion escort coming out of a JP on a flank, it managed the Come about roll, destroyed the Apollo with a single salvo and then duled with the hyperion for a bit. (And the rest of the fleet kept rolling like this. Centauri went for 0 losses)

And when youve decided it hasnt been the dice, you can get to analyzing tactics. Simply go by a ship by ship analysis. Why did you lose it, what was its opposition, and what was its iontended mission (hold up the enemy, but still got destroyed? might be an A-OK).

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Dude, I certainly didn't intend to offend any of you guys by calling you all horrible players, but if you want to win and the rest of you don't have a good grasp of fleet tactics, then by chatting with those that do . . . you can learn what is needed to beat the living daylights out of this apparent centauri god.

Of course, you could just be playing this game for a bit of fun, no harm in that at all. All in all you may just enjoy the B5 universe and playing ACTA is a decent bit of fun to you, no great bother if you lose more than you win, but if thats the case then no one has any place complaining about losing to a superior player.

No one is undefeatable, at all.

 

[lastbesthope]

Love that sig Admiral :lol:

LBH

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Love that sig Admiral :lol:

LBH

:wink:

 

[Celisasu]

While I haven't really played enough of 2nd Edition to say, the Centauri do feel more balanced than before in all honesty. A couple of ships are noticably better or worse than the others but then again that's true of all fleets(for example as a Narn player myself I can't see why I wouldn't choose a G'Vrahn in a War or Armageddon priority engagement and in reverse I can't see why I'd choose a T'Loth...well ever).

 

[Voronesh]

Well in all honsety. A T'Loth might be good for unnerving that Minbari player. Or he simply ignores ist, until the game is over.

Overall i agree (except the Demos) that Centauri do not possess that beam team anymore.