Cargo Personnell

[phavoc]

I was working on a 2000ton freighter design last night and I got to thinking that the crew manifest doesn't cover any sort of cargo handling personnel. There's no supercargo person, no stevedores, no nobody.

So either the assumption is that cargo will be handled at the port (which happens now by longshoremen) or by the existing crew. For a very small ship, say a free-trader, I can see that happening. Crew is really too small for specialization, so there are going to be duties that everybody gets involved in.

But a regular freighter carrying just a bit of cargo is (I would think at least) going to need people on board whose primary duty is going to be handling the cargo loading, any sort of handling of it during transit, and then offloading at your destination port. Sure, you are going to have locals that drop it off/pick it up at your landing pad, but no self-respecting ship captain is going to let those cargo monkeys anywhere near his ship!!

What say you?

 

[DFW]

But a regular freighter carrying just a bit of cargo is (I would think at least) going to need people on board whose primary duty is going to be handling the cargo loading, any sort of handling of it during transit, and then offloading at your destination port.

What say you?

Naw, we are TL 7 (MGT) and we are talking about ~TL 13. The difference between pre-ag human tech and todays tech. It will be automated. Even at todays airports the cargo is taken out of UPS, Fed-Ex planes with one guy moving the vehicle up to the plane and pressing a button. The cargo containers ride on motorized rollers in the aircraft and onto motorized belts into the trailer. No one messes with the cargo containers while airborne.

 

[rust]

Cargo handling requires equipment, different equipment for different ty-
pes of cargo and different local circumstances, and this equipment requi-
res space, so the free trader has to decide whether he wants to use some
of his ship's cargo space for the cargo handling equipment or for cargo.

If he decides to use his own cargo handling equipment, he will of course
task his crew members with unloading the cargo. This will save some mo-
ney, provided he has the right equipment for the cargo and a well trained
crew, but he will be responsible for the cargo during the process.

If he decides to transport cargo instead of cargo handling equipment, he
can rent the equipment at the starport and task his crew with unloading
the cargo, but there is a risk that the equipment and the local facilities are
unfamiliar, and he still has the responsibility for the cargo. This is neither
here nor there, so I would expect it to be a rare way to do it.

As an alternative he can hire local longshoremen with their equipment and
leave both the unloading and the responsibility for the cargo to them. This
is certainly a bit more expensive, but the locals will doubtless prefer it this
way, as it creates jobs for locals at the starport.

I think that most free traders will opt to leave loading and unloading the
cargo to the local professionals, who have the necessary equipment, ex-
perience and familiarity with the local conditions. Therefore the only crew
position directly related to this would be that of a cargomaster to supervi-
se the process, and this could be one of the captain's own tasks.

 

[phavoc]

Naw, we are TL 7 (MGT) and we are talking about ~TL 13. The difference between pre-ag human tech and todays tech. It will be automated. Even at todays airports the cargo is taken out of UPS, Fed-Ex planes with one guy moving the vehicle up to the plane and pressing a button. The cargo containers ride on motorized rollers in the aircraft and onto motorized belts into the trailer. No one messes with the cargo containers while airborne.

True. But cargo ships are going to be more akin to ships, at least the larger cargo carrying vessels. And cargo ships may or may not contain automated loading facilities onbard. Your example presumes cargo standardization and containerization. Cargo is going to come in all kinds of shapes, sizes, with special needs, etc.

And if you are a smaller freighter dropping off cargo to C class and lower star ports, ground support for cargo handling is going to be less and less.

 

[DFW]

And cargo ships may or may not contain automated loading facilities onbard.

At that TL why wouldn't they?

Your example presumes cargo standardization and containerization. Cargo is going to come in all kinds of shapes, sizes, with special needs, etc.

Don't know about that. Small cargo ships today use standardized containers... And, in the Traveller system, cargo comes in standard tonnage allotments. In, cargo containers...

And if you are a smaller freighter dropping off cargo to C class and lower star ports, ground support for cargo handling is going to be less and less.

Why would a TL 10 (equivalent difference between the present and the late 19th century) Class C star port be lower tech than todays facilities? I don't follow the logic.

 

[phavoc]

At that TL why wouldn't they?

I haven't seen any listed or mentioned. That's why I posed the question.

Don't know about that. Small cargo ships today use standardized containers...

Some do, others take on bulk loads, there are tankers, there are RO/RO's, and others still load palletized cargo directly in their ships. You are correct that container ships follow your cargo protocols... but there are still plenty of general cargo ships out there. And a free trader is very small compared to say a 10,000 ton freighter, which is very small compared to the mega-freighters that move the bulk of the world's cargo.

Why would a TL 10 (equivalent difference between the present and the late 19th century) Class C star port be lower tech than todays facilities? I don't follow the logic.

Class C and lower... You can go to major ports in the US (arguably the most technologically sophisticated nation on our planet) and still see freighters using their onbard loading equipmeint to unload cargo out of their own cargo holds. It's going to run the gamut. PC starships are going to be he small tramp freighters of space. They are going to need to be flexible to accomodate all sorts of things. Not all markets have class C starports.

 

[rust]

Small cargo ships today use standardized containers...

Ah, most of the small cargo ships today operate in regions where a stan-
dardized container is about as common as a pig with wings. :wink:

Seriously, take a look at small cargo ships in Latin America, Africa, South
Asia or the Pacific Islands, where the huge majority of them operates.

 

[DFW]

That's why I posed the question.

It is assumed.

Some do, others take on bulk loads, there are tankers, there are RO/RO's, and others still load palletized cargo directly in their ships. You are correct that container ships follow your cargo protocols...

Look at the trade tables. The cargo comes in standardized Dton allotments. Containers.

You can go to major ports in the US (arguably the most technologically sophisticated nation on our planet) and still see freighters using their onbard loading equipmeint to unload cargo out of their own cargo holds.

So, you're arguing that a TL 13 port is going to have the same tech or lower than TL 7 ports? Sorry, not likely at all.

 

[rust]

Look at the trade tables. The cargo comes in standardized Dton allotments. Containers.

This is just to keep the accounting easy, but no reflection of the actual
situation in the setting, because otherwise one would have to assume
that, for example, live animals as cargo come in standardized sizes.

 

[DFW]

because otherwise one would have to assume
that, for example, live animals as cargo come in standardized sizes.

No, it just means that they standardize container sizes to a minimum size so companies can design those life support systems into them. There is a reason you can't break down the cargo into smaller sizes... It's not just for accounting.

If an animal is too big for a one ton container, it gets put into a 2 ton life support equipped container. I SERIOUSLY doubt people are spending money to ship individual canaries light years across space...

 

[phavoc]

Standardized containers or not, you still have to get the cargo off the ship, and loaded back on. Which means you need stevedores, or the higher TL equivalency of them. Maybe they could be robots, but all the pretty pictures show humans driving the anti-grav forklifts loading the ships.

 

[rust]

I SERIOUSLY doubt people are spending money to ship individual canaries light years across space...

The minimum size for a cargo of live animals is 10 dtons / ca. 140 cubic
meters, a bit luxurious for an individual canary. :lol:

 

[DFW]

Standardized containers or not, you still have to get the cargo off the ship, and loaded back on. Which means you need stevedores, or the higher TL equivalency of them. Maybe they could be robots, but all the pretty pictures show humans driving the anti-grav forklifts loading the ships.

Why? We already use tech that moves the cargo out of the hold automatically. It would take the shape of automated vehicles pulling up to the cargo hold, the cargo containers being pushed out automatically (like todays airplanes) to the belt and down into the "trailer" and then whisked off to the holding areas. Nothing needed except for robot vehicles.

Artists are just that. They don't design based on reality. Otherwise, you wouldn't have ships with windows while the rules state that areas of the ships with humans are behind the Hy fuel tanks for additional protection from radiation...

Never look to an artists impression of something they haven't actually seen or, understand, to get an idea of how it really works.

N.B. There is NOTHING wrong with making your game have a low tech, gritty feel. It can be very fun. It just isn't the way tech would advance...

 

[Captain Jonah]

Does the ship have the ability to move one dton plus containers without needing dockside help. If yes then they will need a crew or two to handle the cargo lifters.
If they use dock side cargo handling, automatic or a bloke driving a forklift then the dock crews the cargo handling.
Doing cargo runs out to the sticks and landing on a patch of dirt means they will need to carry a crago lifter out with them and you need someone who knows how to use it. Docking at any kind of port will mean using local labour.
"Sorry mate we do all the cargo moving here, no non union labour on these docks. Get back in ya ship and stay out of the way!"

 

[rust]

Standardized containers or not, you still have to get the cargo off the ship, and loaded back on. Which means you need stevedores, or the higher TL equivalency of them.

In my view it really depends on what is more profitable, to sacrifice some
cargo space, transport one's own freight handling equipment, and save
the money for the local longshoremen, or transport cargo and pay for the
local longshoremen.

A secondary problem would be whether the local regulations would allow a
free trader to load and unload the ship with his own crew, and what the lo-
cal longshoremen would do to the crew members in retaliation for taking
away their jobs ...

 

[phavoc]

I've never loaded the plane itself, but I've loaded air cargo containers, unloaded them, and moved them from the sorting area to the trucks that take them to the airport. And it was all done by hand. Many cargo aircraft have rollers on the floors to move the cargo around. But those aircraft are specialized to move only that sort of cargo. Other aircraft, like the super-guppies don't have that sort of flooring. But they do have copious amounts of tie-downs.

And not every place is going to have robotic cargo machinery. I dunno about union guys stopping you from unloading... if we draw a parallel to what we see in the US today, ships can unload their cargo TO the dock, then the longshoremen do the rest. So that would equate to a Free Trader's crew unloading their cargo essentially to the end of the ramp and then somebody else taking it from there.

I'm going to assume that if ship builders can't design a 1500Dton ship, then they probably won't always get the cargo loading part down pat either. :lol:

 

[rust]

I dunno about union guys stopping you from unloading... if we draw a parallel to what we see in the US today, ships can unload their cargo TO the dock, then the longshoremen do the rest.

Historically the people who handled the cargo on board of the ship were
called "stevedores", while the ones who handled it on the dock were cal-
led "longshoremen". Both kinds of workers, who belonged to different
unions, were not members of the ship's crew, but locals working at the
port - the crew normally did not move the cargo.

 

[DFW]

I've never loaded the plane itself, but I've loaded air cargo containers, unloaded them, and moved them from the sorting area to the trucks that take them to the airport. And it was all done by hand.

Right. And, what is the TL of the planet you are from?

 

[rinku]

I'd agree that any C starport and above, and probably the D ones as well, are going to have loading and unloading facilities. These are going to be largely automated, though that would depend somewhat on TL (TL6 D port might be guys driving forklifts, but in practical terms - so what?). On a Type E port, the ship is going to be on its own, though.

However, as per the basic rule book (p.94), cargo robots "are found in starport docks and on board cargo ships", and that "cargo drones can be constructed as low as TL 9". Note that even if you assume this gives the players a free cargo robot or two on their free trader, it wouldn't carry over to something like a scout. If your Type S is shifting cargo out on the frontier they might need to hire something.

The OP is correct, though, in that there should be someone on the crew who has the responsibility for the cargo. Their job would be to supervise the robots, or operate the drones. They would be the ones who check the manifest, liaise with the port cargo handlers and such. On a small ship this would be yet another part-time job for someone, but on a large cargo ship it would be a position in its own right, probably one of the officer positions. Purser perhaps?

Also, if all the cargo handling is being done by robots or other systems, and there are enough of them, that sounds like a potential extra technical position, requiring remote operations, mechanics and/or Engineer(electronics). Again, on a small, undercrewed ship this would be yet another job for the engineer, but on a big enough freighter it would be a specialist job position, just as Jump Drive Engineer is.

 

[phavoc]

Right. And, what is the TL of the planet you are from?

TL18. But I like to slum in the lower TL's...


But seriously, we know from our only example of an inhabited planet, you are going to see ultra-modern cargo docks alongside docks that are essentially manually run. You can't apply the TL of a planet universally to every place on it.

All I'm saying is that its not a black and white case here. I've got some experience with it, and we did the work with TL0 loaders (i.e. strong backs and arms). We moved 5,000lb containers using TL0 loaders to TL8 trucks. But all the effort was done by hand.