Care to post a combat example?

[Supplement Four]

As negative as I am on MGT, there are things I like about it. Or, I should say, there are things that I like that MGT is trying to accomplish--I just don't think the goal is accomplished in the right way.

For example, the idea of the T/E rule is neat. I like what its trying to accomplish. From my own reading and musings and playing around with it, though, I find it fussy and overly complicated/non-intuitiave. And, so, I haven't sprung it on my gaming group (we all are huge CT fans, and we're completely happy with CT).

I find the continuous-round initiative idea in MGT intriguing. I like how, if a character dodges, it means it will take him longer to act. I'm just not convinced the T/E rule is ready for play. Again, I think its fussy. I'd like to find a better way of implementing it.

In case I'm missing something here, would anyone care to run through an example of an MGT combat?

I'm looking for something simple. Maybe 2-3 combatants. The author describes the rules and rolls real dice as he writes. Maybe going through 3 combat rounds, showing different types of actions.

If anyone is interested in playing through a few combat rounds and recording what they play, then I'll be happy to read what they write with an open mind.

TIA.




EDIT: Oh, and please, no "house rules". I'm only interested in evaluating the official MGT rules. Thanks.

 

[AKAramis]

WJP: nothing like making a comment and the trying to prevent people from responding to it.

Especially since the issues you have have been raised and discussed before.

I'm going to respond anyway...

I've found a better way of implementing the initiative mechanic than the use of a die.

Using a mat with a counter. Here's how I laid out the mat.
R is for when you start the initiative phase with a 6 and thus have a reaction available. (I'm housruling to any adjusted initiative of 7+)

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---++---+
| 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 || R |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---++---+

Likewise, one could use poker chips: 6 white and a blue.
Or put the track on the edge of the Character Sheet, and use a paperclip as the counter.

Much of the fiddlyness is the turning of the die. Much faster to use a mat, or just a paperclip on the edge of the character sheet.

The problems with Timing/Effect are easily adjusted by two simple tweaks: switch success/fail decision to roll low:
Form 0+Skill+AttM or less
VDiff 2+Skill+AttM or less
Diff 4+Skill+AttM or less
Avg 6+Skill+AttM or less
Routine 8+Skill+AttM or less
Easy 10+Skill+AttM or less
Simple 12+Skill+AttM or less

This preserves the odds, but makes a better relationship between skill and exceptional success.

The Other tweak is to not add skill to the timing nor effect die.

The combination of the two also makes autofire work rather well.

 

[Supplement Four]

WJP: nothing like making a comment and the trying to prevent people from responding to it.

Especially since the issues you have have been raised and discussed before.

I'm going to respond anyway...

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to "set anyone up". I honestly think the system is fussy, especially from the GM's point of view. Keeping track of NPC initiative isn't going to be fun.

But, in case I was missing something, I wanted to open the floor and see why the MGT supporters like it.

Thank you for posting, Wil. I will read your post carefully.



EDIT: OK, I just read your post carefully. You really didn't provide what I asked for, did you? You posted house rules. I'm more interested in how the official game is going to work rather than someone's house rules.

 

[jtfc]

WJP: nothing like making a comment and the trying to prevent people from responding to it.

I'm either going to buy the game and play Canon (with maybe a little streamlining), or I'm not going to buy the game. If I cannot play the combat system as written, then I'll buy something else. I do not know if Supplement Four feels the same way, but I'll wager that a large percentage of people interested in this game do.

 

[AKAramis]

WJP: nothing like making a comment and the trying to prevent people from responding to it.

Especially since the issues you have have been raised and discussed before.

I'm going to respond anyway...

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to "set anyone up". I honestly think the system is fussy, especially from the GM's point of view. Keeping track of NPC initiative isn't going to be fun.

But, in case I was missing something, I wanted to open the floor and see why the MGT supporters like it.

Thank you for posting, Wil. I will read your post carefully.



EDIT: OK, I just read your post carefully. You really didn't provide what I asked for, did you? You posted house rules. I'm more interested in how the official game is going to work rather than someone's house rules.

The first two thirds is not "house rules" but about 1/6th complaint about you, and 1/2 the post is an alternate way to track initiative that changes nothing in the rule, but removes much of the fiddlyness.

Major problem with the BBS Software: thread titles are not readily apparent.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm either going to buy the game and play Canon (with maybe a little streamlining), or I'm not going to buy the game. If I cannot play the combat system as written, then I'll buy something else. I do not know if Supplement Four feels the same way, but I'll wager that a large percentage of people interested in this game do.

I thought there might be others, like myself, who'd like to see a complete combat round or two, fully played out.

When I've posted things I've designed in the past to the CotI, I usually play a couple of rounds (if appropriate), roll real dice, record my experience and comment on them, to show people how it really "works".

That's all I was asking for here. If nobody is interested in doing so, then that's OK. I just thought I'd ask. If someone wants to take the time to write it up, then I'd be grateful (and I'm sure others will get something out of it too).

 

[Supplement Four]

The first two thirds is not "house rules" but about 1/6th complaint about you...

I appreciate that. It was nice of you.

...and 1/2 the post is an alternate way to track initiative that changes nothing in the rule, but removes much of the fiddlyness.

It's still a bit fiddly, isn't it? Keeping track on a board or chart or even with a die is still keeping track. It harkens back to the old days with action point systems.

Keeping track of things in rpgs is a pain, is it not?

Now, I understand that this burden can be placed on the player to keep track of his own initiative (whether that be with a die, on a track, or whatever). But, what about the GM?

Let's say the players become involved in a bar brawl. There's 4 player characters (and they all keep track of their own initiative), but there are 10 other brawlers in the fight (some fighting each other, some fighting the PC's).

That's 10 NPCs the GM has to keep track of.

With a traditional initiative system, it's simple to roll initiative, record it once, and then only reference it to see "who goes next" during the fight. Not so hard for a GM to do, even with 10 NPCs to keep track of.

But, with this system, I think the GM is going to be pulling his hair out. Constantly, we're adjusting the initiative for all the NPCs.

Now, this would be a hassle, but not as much of a hassle, if the initiative stayed constant (to where the GM need only keep adding 2 to it every round). But, initiative changes based on what the character does. It changes according to his actions and his T/E die.

Am I wrong to think that this will be a nightmare for the GM?

That's one of the things I wanted to see in an example--how that played out.



EDIT: This exemplifies what I don't like about MGT. The "idea" is great. I like the idea of initiative changing based on character actions. What I'm concerned about is the implementation of the idea. That doesn't seem so good. So, I'm trying to find out (from those who like the system) what I'm missing here.

 

[AKAramis]

Am I wrong to think that this will be a nightmare for the GM?

That's one of the things I wanted to see in an example--how that played out.



EDIT: This exemplifies what I don't like about MGT. The "idea" is great. I like the idea of initiative changing based on character actions. What I'm concerned about is the implementation of the idea. That doesn't seem so good. So, I'm trying to find out (from those who like the system) what I'm missing here.

To be honest, it wasn't bad at all with 15 NPC's on a mat. I was using snapshot counters on a grid, and used dice as markers on an impromptu chart. It was FAR easier than dealing with dice by the counters.

It also allowed for annotating (with the R space) when characters had a reserve action and could interrupt, rather than having to remember which had had 6's before.

I've run about 7 combats with the system. Including two melee-only brawls, a running gunfight, and several boarding actions.

the actual "round the table" is in Dex order... and is done twice per turn. Once for everyone during movement, and once for those with initiative 6. Just run the full list, and trust players not to act when initiative is 5-...

so that's just the old fashioned Dex-list.

once the fiddling with dice ended (by switching to "mats") that shaved about 30 seconds and a whole lot of confusion about it off every turn.

The really problematic bit is Recoil penalties, and capping at 1 initiative.

It did particularly well in a duel: two nobles with cutlasses.

To be honest, I could have run all these combats faster under MT. I'm not certain how much of that is familiarity and how much is rules design. My players DID like the not acting every round, and also all liked being able to move every round. It is an action point system, where an action is 6 AP, but rebates some.

THe guy with skill 3 winds up going almost every round. The guy with no skill is practically worthless. Skill 1 Dex8 was going every other round, sometimes every round.

 

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

This is a combat I ran to test 3.1 - I probably got some of it wrong but gives an idea.

****************
THUGS
Petty Thug 1 Rogue (enforcer) 2
9 (+1) 8 7 7 6 5
Stealth 2, Melee (brawling 1), Gun (slug pistol) 1, Athletics 1
Body Pistol (x1+2), C X1+2 (3-8) No – 6rds reload 1 recoil 1 Cosh, Mesh Armour (2)

Petty Thug 2 Rogue (enforcer) 3
8 7 9 (+1) 5 6 7
Athletics 1, Gun (slug pistol) 2, Recon 1, Drive 1, Melee (blade) 1, Streetwise 1
Autopistol S (x1+3) Automatic 3 0.5 kg 15rds 1 reload 1 recoil
Dagger (2), Flak Jacket (3), Ground Car

Dangerous Thug 3 Rogue (enforcer) 2
8 8 10 (+1) 8 8 6
Streetwise 2, Persuade 1, Deception 1, Stealth 1, Gun (slug pistol) 2, Leadership 1
Autopistol S (x1+3), (4-9) Automatic 3 0.5 kg 15rds 1 reload 1 recoil Cloth Armour (5).

PCs
Li’ksherayk (Lenx) - Vargr steward/gunner age about 50?
Str 7 (0) Dex 6 (0) End 8 (0) Int 8 (0) Edu 4 (-1) Pres* 5 (-1)
Engineering-1; Blade-1; Comms-1; Gun combat-1; Gunnery-1; Persuade-1; Stealth-1; Steward-1; Vacc Suit-1; Athletics-0; Carouse-0; Computer-0; Deception-0; Melee, bite-0; Recon-0; Streetwise-0
ACR M x2+8 (10-20) Automatic 5 3kg 30 rd mag 2 reload; TL10 cloth (8), blade.

Duggie Walsh
Str 6 (0) Dex 7 (0) End 6 (0) Int 8 (0) Edu 7 (0) Soc 4 (-1)
Pilot-2; Astrogation-1; Mechanic-1; Navigation-1; Streetwise-1; Gun combat-0; Gunnery-0; Survival-0; Vacc Suit-0; Zero-G-0
Snub Pistol S X1 (1-6) No – 6 rds; 3 reload


Situation

The PCs are trying to stop an escaping ground car with an impromptu roadblock.
Dexterities are: Thugs 1, 3 – 8; Thug 2, Walsh – 7; Lenx – 6
Round 1: Initiative: Thug 1:4, Thug 2: 6, Thug 3: 5; Lenx 6, Walsh 5.

Round 1
Movement: Car drives [but a combat action is used to stop the car so how does this work?]
Aiming: Lenx covers the corner and spends 2 ticks getting +2 Aim

Thug 2 is driving a ground car at 60kph (50m/round) and is faced by a makeshift roadblock formed from a cart and crates 40m away around a bend in the road which he can choose to burst through or to stop. The former is a Diff-2, the latter a Diff+2. He declares a stop but swerving the car to sideways on to provide cover (Diff 0) - he rolls a 5 and a 2 and succeeds (roll of 7+1), leaving the car 10-20 m away from the barricade (stopping distance is about 40m and his effect roll of 5 reduced the speed by 75kph in the turn and himself on Initiative 2.

After the Initiative phase: Thug 1: 6; Thug 2: 4, Thug 3: 6; Lenx:6; Walsh 6

Thugs 1 and 3 elect to bale out and take cover behind the car, Lenx and Walsh to fire. Both Thugs will duck into cover – the driver Thug 2, will also duck – all get -2 vs ranged weapons – and are -1 to Initiative.

Walsh fires his snub pistol at Thug 1 getting a 6 and 4 (10) with the Thug dodging at -1 still hits doing 6 which Thug 1’s mesh reduces to 4, slightly wounding him. Walsh’s initiative drops to 4.

Lenx fires Autofire from his ACR gets timing 1, and effects 6, 5, 3, 2 giving total rolls (inc Gun Combat 1 and Aim 2) of 10, 9, 7, 5 – this would in normal circumstances give two hits with an effect of 6 and 5 firing at the driver and thug 1 [does the fact that the car decelerated from 60kph provide a negative modifier?] As the driver is in ½ cover (-2) he is just hit but the car provides some protection (6) from the ACR but because this is effect 6 it gets full damage doing 20-6 (car) -3 (flak) = -11 dropping the driver unconscious and reducing his initiative to 1.

Round 2
Movement: Thugs 1 and 3 take cover behind the car and ready weapons using one tick – both are now on Init 4.
Initiative: All but Lenx (Init 3) are on 6.
Declarations: Thug 1 fires at Walsh behind cover -1, Thug 3 at Lenx who ducks behind a crate (Init 2 -2 cover), Walsh fires at Thug 1 again (who is in -1 cover).
Walsh gets a 4, 3 and misses and is on Init 4
Thug 1 gets a 1, 4 and misses and is on Init 4
Thug 3 fires a burst at Lenx (5 rds) and gets a 6, 6 (12+2 (skill)-2 dodge). His burst does (6x1)+3+3 (burst) = 12-cloth 8 does Lenx 4 to End and reduces him to Init 5 (6-1 recoil).

Round 3
Movement: Lenx stays down in cover.
Intiative: Thug 1, 3 and Walsh on 6, Lenx on 4.
Declaration: Thug 3 fires another burst at Lenx (who ducks back (Init 3)) and misses – Thug 3 reduced to Init 1. Thug 1 and Walsh exchange shots: Thug 1 gets 6,5 and does 8 damage to Walsh before he can fire, knocking him out, leaving him with Init 5.

Round 4
No movement: Thug 1 on 5, Thug 3 on 1, Lenx on 3.
Initiative: all add two ticks - Lenx decides to Hasten and pops up to fire a burst at Thug 1 and rolls an 8 (5, 3) -1 for hasten, -1 for cover, +1 for Gun = a miss now on Init 5.
Thug 1 fires back missing badly and being on Init 2.

Round 5
No movement – Lenx aims for a tick at Thug 1.
Initiative: with two added ticks Thug 1: 4, Thug 3: 5, Lenx 6.
Declaration: Lenx shoots at Thug 3 with a burst who dodges and ducks back using 2 ticks to give him -4. Lenx rolls a 6,6 which is a hit even with -1 for short range because of Skill 1 and Aim 1. He does effect (6x2)+8+5(burst) = 25-5(cloth). Even if the car protected him with its armour this would still exceed End (and if not it would exceed two characteristics) and he drops. Lenx is still on Init 6.

Round 6
Thug 1 decides discretion is the better part of valour and chooses to sprint away using a Combat Action to run and dodging for 2 ticks. Lenx interrupts with a burst (emptying his clip) rolling 6 and 5 (11-2 dodge-1 close +1 Gun) and doing 25-2 (mesh) = 23 – as Thug 1 only had 20 characteristic points left he dies instantly.

*****

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you were after?

Regards

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you were after?

Yessir! Thanks! I'm going to sit back, grab my Coke, and read your combat closely.

The only thing missing is your thoughts on all this playing out. Did you find it fiddley? Did you find it fussy? Or, did you find it smooth, easy to manage, intutive, and most of all, fun?

I'd like to hear your honest comments on what its like playing with these rules.

 

[tneva82]

Keeping track of NPC initiative isn't going to be fun.

Dice top of where you record damage he sustaints tms? Works for me. I need some paperwork anyway so small dice(plenty of those around ) is quick&easy method. Don't see problem with it myself.

With a traditional initiative system, it's simple to roll initiative, record it once, and then only reference it to see "who goes next" during the fight. Not so hard for a GM to do, even with 10 NPCs to keep track of. [/q]

Problem I have with this is that it's just IGOUGO. Realisticly speaking that just isn't how it would work. We don't go around rounds doing "I hit you, you hit me, I hit you, you hit me" round after round. It just isn't intuitive. Similary how I much more prefer Epic Armageddon's more dynamic initiave system over FB/40k's plain IGOUGO system...Much more intuitive.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Accidental incomplete post, now removed.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

The Dud, the Cad, and the Cuddly.

The Dud: Haile Malach, corsair made good.

Haile is a bit of a klutz. He was taken by pirates as a young scavenger, and has slowly moved up the ranks. He never washes and rarely shaves, is rather rotund, and his apparel is filthy. He first heard of the Queninal from a captive taken from a survey ship. After half his crew were eliminated by Agent Otomo, the rest refused to follow. He booked passage on a commercial liner to the planet Sundew, hoping to beat Otomo there. Little did he know he was under surveillance.

Haile Malach, Pirate (R3), ex-Scavenger, age 34

98A765

Gun Combat/Slug Rifle 3, Melee/Brawling 2, Gunnery 2, Pilot/DSV 2,
Vac Suit 1.

0-Level Skills:
Athletics, Recon, Streetwise, Stealth, Survival, Carouse, Gambling, Deception.

Kit:
DB Shotgun x3, S, Mag 2, Rec 2, 50 shells SR+3, MR+2
Cloth Armour 5
Low-Lite Goggles


The Cad: Tomas Van Terror, villainous scoundrel.

Van Terror is a brute. During his time in SolSec he got a reputation for ruthlessness and excessive mortality. Eventually even SolSec could not tolerate his excesses and he went freelance in the criminal underworld. Quite an effete figure, he stands tall and whip-thin, wearing a dark duster and wide-brimmed hat, and sports an eccentric handlebar moustache. He got wind of the Queninal while playing cards with one of Haile's ex-crewmates. A swift bout of torture later and Van Terror was boarding the same liner as Haile was, along with his pride and joy, a Firk-Nekkelston grav-bike.

Tomas Van Terror, Enforcer (R2), ex-SolSec Commando (Major), age 38

4AAB97

Gun Combat/Energy Pistol 3, Tactics 3, Gambling 2, Melee/Blade 2,
Recon 2, Gun Combat/Slug Rifle 2, Recon 2, Stealth 1, Zero-G 1, Streetwise 1,
Persuade 1, Athletics 1, Computer 1, Leader 1.

0-Level Skills:
Battle Dress, Heavy Weapons, Flyer/Grav.

Kit:
Laser Pistol x2, S/M, Mag 100 S/MR+4
Stiletto x2+1
(Diplo) Cloth Armour 5
2 Frag Grenades


The Cuddly: Felicity Otomo, top agent.

Otomo is a skilled agent for SolSec, combining military skills with a flare for investigation, which has already netted her a big scalp (a corrupt Party Commissioner). She is small but amply formed, and has a professional demeanour. Her current assignment has been a tough one. Tasked to locate an supposedly Ancient relic, the Queninal, she has already spent a year on the job. Her partner was killed by pirates (on which she was suitably revenged), but she has tracked down the planet this mythical object, and jumped there in her small scoutship.

Felicity Otomo, SolSec Agent (R3), ex-Navy Lt, age 30.

8C8BB9

Gun Combat/Slug Pistol 3, Stealth 2, Pilot/DSV 2, Astrogation 2,
Mechanic 1, Recon 1, Melee/Blade 1, Leadership 1, Investigate 1,
Deception 1, Computer 1.

0-Level Skills:
Vac Suit, Zero-g, Gunnery, Athletics, Carouse, Medic

Kit:
Gauss Pistol x1+4, Auto-3, S, Mag 40, Rec 1 (Spare Mag) SR+5, MR+4
Blade x1+2
(Diplo) Cloth Armour 5
Headset Lamp + Night Vision
Medkit and Tools.


Felicity has located the Ancient site where the Queninal is to be found, and sets her ship down in a nearby clearing. After half a day of exploration through the vine-choked ruins, seems to have found the chamber where it lies. She uses her multi-tool to prize of the casing of the Ancient console, and putting on her headset for light in the dim room, sets to work on prizing loose that promising looking crystal.

Meanwhile, Haile too has located the Ancient site in a stolen air/raft, not long after Felicity's arrival. blundering around the shadowed rubble, he spots Felicity's route. He makes his way to the door of the chamber, and notices Felicity working on the console. He silently checks his double-barrelled shotgun is loaded, and starts to stalk the so far unaware agent.

Van Terror has no trouble at all following the clumsy pirate. Luckily the corsair's route does not take them both over the mysterious anti-gravitic anomaly that pervades over part of Sundew's surface, so Van Terror can take his bike. The pirate does not notice the small speck in the sky behind him. On landing Van Terror notices the agent's vessel in a clearing 200 metres from the ruins, and wonders if there's anyone worth hiring back at the starport to fly that ship of this godfersaken planet, once all the fun is over. Van Terror catches up with Haile in short order, and follows but 20 paces behind as he makes his way to the final confrontation. As Haile begins to creep towards Felicity, Van Terror take sup a position in the doorway. Brushing his hand along the wall, his fingers feel some kind of switch protruding from the granite surface.

For the purposes of this enactment, I am using uncapped Effect and current playtest weapon stats. For none damage effects I will use a modified success and fail scale. S(<4 Bad, 5-8 Medium, 9> Good) / F(<0 Bad, 1-4 Medium, 5> Good). Some of the damage effects will reflect my prospective house-rule approach (Hits that take End to 0 can have a Knockdown, and having 2 Stats at 0 becomes Incapacitated, rather than Unconscious. Max End vs 8+ damage to last attribute). When firing automatic a coloured die is used for Timing.

For choosing T/E: Haile rolls a red die and a green die, red is Effect and green is Timing. Van Terror will always choose Effect as highest. Felicity will decide once the dice are rolled.

(The following is 'scripted' to set up the combat)
Haile makes his way across the room, keeping his beady eyes on Felicity through his goggles, one step at a time. He can hear her muttering under her breath.

[Haile: Stealth + Dex, +0 total. Roll (1/3)3 - oops!] - vs - [Felicity: Recon + Int, +2 total. roll (5/4)11]

Haile steps on some debris that makes a loud crunching noise, just as Felicity pries free the object. She drops the multi-tool and pulls her Nisseau & Spechre compact gauss pistol from her belt and spins to face the doofus.

All roll Initiative.

[Felicity: 2+2 = 4]
[Van Terror: 6+1 = 7 = 6]
[Haile: 6+0 = 6]

Round 1: Haile is in Short range to both Felicity and Van Terror, VT and F are at medium.
F4 VT6 H6

Basic moves (in reverse order of Dex):

Haile lines up on Felicity (-2 ticks)
Van Terror flicks the switch - it's a light switch!
Felicity moves 1 sq NE

F4 VT4 H6

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H6

Declare Combat Action:

Haile fires at Felicity.
Van Terror fires at Haile.
Felicity vaults the console to get into cover.

[Felicity: Athletics +1, + Dex +2, Difficult -2 = +1. Roll: 5/4 (10 / S6)] success

[Van Terror (Range S): Laser P+ 3, Dex +1, Range +0, Sudden Light -1 = +2. Roll: 3/1 (7 / F5)] near miss

Ref rules because Felicity successfully vaulted the console she gets -3 cover.

[Haile (Range S): Shotgun +3, Sudden Light -3, Cover -2 = -2. Roll: 2/6 (6 / F0)] miss

Suddenly, the lights come on! Felicity instinctively closes her eyes and vaults to the other side of the console, putting it between her and Haile, and whatever the new threat is shooting from the doorway. An instant later Haile, blinded by his low-light goggles, blasts away at thin air. He does not notice as a laser beam burns through his tunic. Van Terror curses his bad shooting, and prepares his next attack.

Round 2: Range does not change
F4 VT3 (Tactics!) H5

Basic moves

Haile pulls off his goggles (-1 ticks).
Van Terror moves back into cover, and grabs a grenade from a bandolier (-1 tick).
Felicity sneaks a look at the doorway.

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT3 H6

Combat Action:

Haile fires at Felicity.
Van Terror sets his grenade.
Felicity pops a burst at the figure in the doorway.

For both Felicity and Van Terror, they have 3/4 cover. Haile is still reeling from the blinding light, and is at -2.

[Felicity: reaction to Haile's shot, ducks into cover, -1 tick]
[Van Terror: no action]
[Haile: shotgun 3, Light -2, Cover -4 = -3. Roll: 1/1 (-1/ F-2)] fumble

Felicity sees Haile lining up another blast and aborts her shot at the doorway. She needn't have worried, as Haile is in too much of a hurry and isn't braced by his shot; it goes wild, an the recoil knocks him backwards. His foot catches in a root and he tumbles to the ground, rolling half into a recess. Van Terror twirls his moustache and chuckles evilly to himself...

Round 3: Range does not change.
F5 VT5 H1

Basic moves

Haile rolls disorientated on the ground. Ref rules cannot do anything until his Timing reaches 6.
Van Terror moves to the doorway, grenade in hand, ranging his throw for 1 tick.
Felicity lines up on the doorway, and aims for 1 tick.

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H3

Combat Action:

Haile gathers his wits.
Van terror lobs the grenade at Haile.
Felicity fires a burst at Van Terror.

[Felicity: Gauss P +3, Dex +2, Range -1, Cover -2 = +3. Roll: 2/4 (9/ S5)] hit on VT
[Van Terror: Athletics +1, Dex +1, Range -2 = +0. Roll: 6/3 (9/ S6)] grenade explodes 1 m away from Haile.
[Haile: howls in rage, uses 2 ticks to avoid damage]

Hit on VT: 5x1+4+4 = 13. -5 Armour. VT takes 8 on his End. He is down to 2
Grenade on Haile. 17 pts of damage! -2 for 'dodge', -5 for Armour = 10 pts of End. Haile is wounded.

VT End 2.
H End 0.

As Van Terror rolls the grenade towards Haile, Felicity catches him with a burst. He curses and staggers back into the shadows. Then the grenade explodes just a metre from Haile. Rubble and vines are blasted all over, and there is a deafening boom. Dust and debris settle on Haile's inert body.

Round 4: Range does not change.
F3 VT3 H1

Basic moves

Haile lies still, his ears ringing and blood in his eyes.
Van Terror hugs the wall next to the door.
Felicity remains lined up on the door.

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F5 VT5 H3

Combat Action:

No one acts.

Haile wants to play dead. As this is a passive action the Ref rules that this is a special case and he can roll a Deception vs Recon and Int on the other two. They will also be distracted by focusing on each other, and the expectation he is badly hurt. This will cost no ticks nor does T/E come in to play.

[Haile: Deception +0 = +0. Roll: 9]
[Van Terror: Recon +2, Int +2 = +4. Roll: 3+4 = 7]
[Felicity: Recon -3, Int +1 = -2. Roll: 7-2 = 5]

Haile is successful. Both Felicity and Van Terror think he is out of the fight, at least. They are behind cover, sneaking glances at each other's position waiting for a clean shot.



Round 5: Range does not change.
F5 VT5 H3

[/b]Basic moves[/b]

Haile lies still, trying to remember which pocket his shotgun shells are in.
Van Terror readies his last grenade.
Felicity glances around for other exits, spotting none. She remains aiming towards the door (1 tick).

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H5

Combat Action:

Haile lies still. His shells are in his left pocket. His eyes have recovered from the blinding, though he still can't hear anything.
Van terror lobs the grenade at Felicity.
Felicity is aiming at the doorway. seeing the grenade, she opts to duck into full cover (-2 ticks).

[Van Terror: Athletics +1, Dex +1, Range -2 Cover -4= -4 . Roll: 3/2 (1/ F-1)] miss.

The Ref rules that the grenade bounces back 6 metres (how much the roll failed by, bad fail x2 and backwards) after hitting the console.

The grenade explodes in the middle of the room, far from both Felicity and Haile, and showers more debris and smoke everywhere.

Round 6: range does not change.
F4 VT3 H5

Basic moves

Haile wants to surreptitiously reload his shotgun. The ref rules he has to spend 4 ticks to load one shell and make a Stealth check in the action phase.
Van Terror stays in cover.
Felicity wonders how many grenades this cad has got left.

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT5 H1

[Haile: Stealth +1 = +1. Roll: 5/2 (8 /S6)] success, though timing is still 1.

A lull in the battle as the dust settles. Van Terror sticks to the wall like glue. Felicity keeps her aim on the doorway. This fellow is a tricky customer. Haile slowly and painfully cracks the shotgun and manages to load one shell, hopefully without no one hearing (he's more or less deaf now so he can't tell if he makes a noise).

Round 7: range does not change.
F6 VT5 H1

Basic moves

Haile sneaks out another shell from his pocket, wincing at the pain.
Van Terror moves to take a quick glance.
Felicity is aiming (2 ticks)

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H3

Combat Action:

Haile lies there, waiting for the fatal shot.
Van Terror sneaks a glance.
Felicity fires a burst as soon as she sees movement.

[Van Terror: Recon +2, Int +1 = +3. Roll: 6/5 (15 / S9)] he spots something useful.
[Felicity: Gauss P +3, Dex +2, Range -1, Cover -4 = +0. Roll: 2/5 (7 /F2)] miss.

As Van Terror briefly exposes his face to look into the room, Felicity cracks off a shot. The burst goes wide however, and Van Terror grins in excitement at what he has seen, and twirls his moustache psychotically. Above Felicity's position is a wrecked piece of Ancient equipment, caught in the vines above her head. The last explosion has damaged some of the vine cover on the roof, and now this large cylinder is held by just a single vine..!

AMMO UPDATE: F34, VT99, H1

Round 8: range does not change.
F5 VT5 H3

Basic moves

Haile lies there.
Van Terror aims for 1 tick at the vine holding up the debris.
Felicity aims for 1 tick on the space where Van Terror's face might be.

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H5

Combat Action:

Van Terror fires at the vine with his laser.
Felicity fires at Van Terror.

[Felicity: Gauss P +3, Dex +2, Range -1, Cover -2 = +2. Roll: 1/2 (5 / F3)] miss, darnit!
[Van Terror: Laser P +3, Dex +1, Target Size -2 = +2. Roll: 6/1 (9 / S8)] nice hit, sir!

Felicity squirts of another burst of needles as Van Terror lines up his shot. "What's he aiming at?", she thinks as once again her flechettes whip past this elusive figure. His ruby red laser beam slices through the vines above, and too late Felicity realises what has happened. The Ancient piece of equipment drops down on top of her.

Ref rules she takes 3D damage, and that she will be stuck underneath it. 4 + 1 + 1 = 6. Her armour only gives her half protection, so she loses 4 from Endurance. the cylinder glances off the console, breaking the fall somewhat, but still, it is lying across her legs, trapping her for now.

--------

There's a definite lull now. The Ref ends combat for the time being as everyone takes stock. Everyone is injured to some degree. right now, Van Terror seems to have the advantage.

Felicity - End 4
Van Terror - End 2
Haile - End 0

The Ref rules there's no need for Timing for the next action. If combat recommences, everyone will roll initiative again.

Felicity is going to try to get free from the debris.
Van Terror is going to walk cautiously up to Felicity's position, quickly checking on Haile as he goes past.
Haile is going to play dead again.

[Felicity: Athletics +0, Str +0, Hard -4 = -4. Roll: 6-4=2)] Felicity struggles in vain.
[Haile: Deception +0. Roll: 12] good playing dead!
[Van Terror: Recon +2, Int +1 = +3. Roll: 8+3=11] good, but not good enough.

Van Terror chuckles to himself as he slowly walks over to the console, admiring the damage he has caused to the chamber. A quick glance at the pirate shows him to be motionless and covered in blood. "He can wait," he thought, listening to the grunts of effort coming from Felicity. She tries to lift the console form her legs, but she hasn't the leverage. Too late she remembers he gun at her side when Van Terror creeps around the corner. She glares at him.

"Well hello little missy. Looks like we gonna have a lot of fun". Keeping her covered with his laser pistol, Van Terror twirls his moustache and then reaches for his thin stiletto.

Meanwhile, Haile has reloaded his shotgun. He rolls onto his back, and cracks the barrel shut, taking aim for Van Terror's back.

Everyone rolls initiative:
F 5+2 = 7
VT 4+1 = 5
H 4+0 = 4

Round 9: Felicity is at Close with Van Terror. Haile is at Medium for both of them.
F 6 VT5 H4

Basic moves

Haile takes aim for Van Terror.
Van Terror spins around in alarm (1 tick).
Felicity grabs for her gun (2 ticks).

Initiative phase: +2 ticks
F6 VT6 H6

Combat Action:

Haile lets rip with both barrels.
Van Terror fires at Haile.
Felicity fires Full Auto at Van Terror.

[Felicity: Gauss P +3, Dex +2, Pinned -1, Close -1 = +3. Roll: T5/E2/E3. (10 / S5 + 11 / S6)] wow, 2 nasty hits on the nasty man.
[Van Terror: Laser P +3, Dex +1 = +4. Roll: 6/2 (12 /S10)] a hit, ouch!
[Haile: Shotgun +3, Range -2 = +1. Roll: 3/6 (10 / S4)] way to go, big boy!

Damage:

From Felicity, Van Terror takes 10-5 +10-5 points of damage, for a total of 10. He loses all his End and 2 from his Dex.
From Haile, Van Terror takes 4x3-5 + 4x3-5 (both barrels!) for 12 points of damage. He loses the rest of his Dex and all his Str. Sayonara Mr. Tomas Van Terror.

Haile takes 10x2 -5 from Van Terror's laser, for 15. As his End was already at 0, he picks to lose all his Str, and 6 of his Dex, leaving him with 2 Dex. He is incapacitated. As there's no way he can beat an Endurance test of 8+15, he's unconscious.

There's a hail of gunfire, the rapidfire thock-thock-thock-thock of a gauss pistol on full auto, the faint warble of a laser, and the double boom of a shotgun. Van Terror is peppered with flechettes from behind and blasted by pellets from the front. Felicity is sprayed with arterial blood as Van Terror's torso disintergrates under the onslaught. Haile looks down at the smoking hole in his armour in the middle of his chest. "Oh", he manages to say as everything goes dark.

Felicity lies there in a pool of blood and guts, her legs going numb...

AFTERMATH

It takes Felicity Otomo almost half an hour to wriggle free of the debris. She is scratched and bruised and is carrying a limp, but otherwise alive. The same cannot be said for the other two. Van Terror lies in two main pieces, a look of comical surprise on his stiffened features. She wipes the blood from the Queninal on his coat, and checks her pistol. Twenty four rounds remaining. She replaces the mag with her spare, not wanting to come up short if anything else unexpected happens.

She hobbles over to the other body. She recognises him as one of the pirates that killed Stark. She's about to deliver the coup de grace when his eyes flicker open, crossing to look at the narrow muzzle fifty centimetres from them. Felicity considers for a moment, then sheathes her pistol. Instead, she pulls out her medkit, and drops it near his hand.

"Thanks for the help," she says as she walks off...

 

[Klaus Kipling]

The thing that took the longest was noting everything down for this report

I did this as I would normally in play, using TextEdit on a laptop to keep notes. Fairly easy to keep track of stuff. But in practice I was remembering the Timing as it went along.

Obviously this was solitaire - with players I'd keep the segments short and sweet, but I'd give everyone a chance to say something even if they couldn't act, including perhaps advice to other players, given that the characters know more than the players, though nothing like a complete tactical analysis.

There is a fair amount to keep track of as a Ref, but not too much. With lots of baddies I'd group them together. There is less rolling to do, though, meaning I can relax in my chair/sofa with my notes/laptop instead of leaning forward all the time to make rolls on a flat surface.

Normally it's roll, take note, extra roll, take note. but with this, it's all there in the dice. roll once, sit back, make several notes before a new roll.

I think different coloured dice work very well. Not for defining T or E necessarily, as I'd still choose, but I can remember which one was T and which one was E and the results are there at a glance on the table until the next roll.

For me personally it works a little better than I first thought. As a ref it gives me lots of details to aid descriptions, and tells me what happens when things fail.

For example, normally on a failed grenade throw you have to roll again to see where it went - now it's all in the roll.

And I really like not having to roll damage. Granted the weapons in this example did a heftier amount of damage than given in the playtest rules, but I like it - it feels right.

It's easy to interrupt the combat sequence for when events are not as finely timed, then restart if necessary with an initiative roll.

Is T/E fussier? Yes.
Is it worth the extra fuss? Yes - it makes combat much richer narratively.

A 'regular' system. Roll to hit, you hit, ooh good hit, roll damage, oops, poor damage. Don't like that, and it's bland.

With T/E the player defines the task much more than just 'I shoot that man'. Weighing dodging with other factors makes choices in the combat round more tactical IMHO.

There probably needs to be more commentary in the final release as to how T/E should be iterated in different circumstances. I found myself having to play it by ear and houserule alot - the grainier sequence lends itself to situations not explicitly covered in the playtest rules, such as using 'passive' skills.

All in all though I'm happy with it. It is slower, but since I like to keep my firefights spaced out, the extra grain makes them all the more sweet. Think of it as a kind of 'bullet time'. Just make sure it's deadly so that combats don't really go on forever.

(Tell you what, it's about 10 times faster than the Burning Wheel.... )

 

[captainjack23]

Holy crap, that was impressive...
(looks at pathetic 12 line combat description. Shakes head. Tosses into trash.)

 

[EDG]

Er, wow. Nice work, Klaus!

 

[Supplement Four]

WOW! Above and beyond, Klaus.

I will read thisl, word for word, tomorrow. Time for bed now. It's late here.

But...amazing reply, Klaus. Thanks very much. I'm very intersted in the example.

 

[Sturn]

The problems with Timing/Effect are easily adjusted by two simple tweaks: switch success/fail decision to roll low.......

This preserves the odds, but makes a better relationship between skill and exceptional success.

The Other tweak is to not add skill to the timing nor effect die.

The combination of the two also makes autofire work rather well.

I agree with this, see my posts and Sablewyvern's for essentially the same system. Something like this has already been proposed and a similar house rule is what I will be using. I just wish Mongoose would take a look at the reverse T/E concept.

1. Reverse T/E (lower is better)
2. Don't use 7-die for timing duration out-of-combat, since 1 is already better.
3. During combat only, DO use the MGT 7-die reversal.
4. Don't add DMs to Effect die.

That solves all of the T/E issues in my opinion. I also will be using 1 and 6 for abject/exceptional as opposed to 1-2, 5-6 plus if a character rolls double 6's, he rolls a third die, if he rolls double 1's, he subtracts a third die (so anyone can fail or succeed at a task, even if highly unlikely).

EDIT: Sorry, made this post after only reading the first page, didn't see second page where it had gone back on topic.

 

[jtfc]

Wow, those two examples were excellent.

Mongoose just got a new customer.

If I were Mongoose, I'd ask to use Klaus' example verbatim, just fixing small errors (iirc, you have timing as the high die and effect as the low dice on autofire, and the 3.2 rules say the low die has to be the timing die on autofire, though I may be wrong). The other example with the car was also excellent, just without the pretty pictures and grenades.

I really really REALLY hope that the Mongoose staff reads the forums, and understands that the success or failure of these products is going to be based on how well they explain the T/E system.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Wow, those two examples were excellent.

Mongoose just got a new customer.

If I were Mongoose, I'd ask to use Klaus' example verbatim, just fixing small errors (iirc, you have timing as the high die and effect as the low dice on autofire, and the 3.2 rules say the low die has to be the timing die on autofire, though I may be wrong). The other example with the car was also excellent, just without the pretty pictures and grenades.

I really really REALLY hope that the Mongoose staff reads the forums, and understands that the success or failure of these products is going to be based on how well they explain the T/E system.

Re Autofire, there was a lot of discussion as to the best way to go about it, and Sablewyvern came up with the idea of a fixed T die: it solved a lot of the statistical errors.

And thank you very much, folks !!

It did take about 4 hours to write up, but actual play accounted for about 5-10% of that.

Solitaire will always taker a bit longer, as it really has to be all written down (otherwise it's just daydreaming ), but I think I might start logging everything in play; I usually only have 1 or 2 players so it is viable - with more probably not worth it.

If you look carefully, I made a few errors as Ref. [EDIT: looking back I made loads of errors - I always forgot to add any aiming ticks to the hit roll, and later on I seemed to get all the damage on VT wrong - he's still very dead, though]. First I broke my own rule on Haile not being able to act, I got the grenade radius wrong (3m diameter instead of radius: luckily it made no difference to the outcome) and in the final act I realise that Van Terror would have actually had 1 point of Str left, as Felicity only did 9pts, not 10. But that end was way cooler!

Felicity would have been the PC, and Van Terror the major villain. Haile could perhaps also be a PC, but I saw him more of one of those minor thugs who does something interesting enough to roll up fully as an NPC. As a Ref coming up with a scenario I did have an ideal sequence of events in mind, and funnily enough events panned out better than expected. I let the dice dictate exactly how things went (I did 'cheat' once with Haile's roll to reload quietly - if this was a regular scenario I would have done the same as it made for a better story). I had expected Haile to be more severely wounded by the grenade: his fumble had already put him in the place where I wanted him (on his ass in the ditch), and in the end saved his life (the -2 to damage he got from the 'cover' - otherwise at the end he would have been on 0). The second grenade could have really messed up Felicity, but it missed by a mile. And if Felicity's shooting had been better earlier on the whole thing might have been over much quicker.

After sleeping on it, I think to make Timing truly worthwhile (with the extra bookkeeping) there needs to be a few more pointers on how to use it. What actually constitutes a basic action? Moving 1 square is a little more than just shifting position. Using ticks should be clearer. ATM reloading, changing weapon, but also issuing commands, quickly checking sensors (whereas stuff more extensive than a couple of words or a quick glance).

I'm not sure whether doing an assess (a Recon task, but maybe Tactics could be used as well) should be a basic action or a combat action. An assess would not be a boolean task, in that the roll would just indicate how much info was acquired, eg: <4 no facts, 5-8 1 fact, 9-12 2 facts, 13> 3 facts. This is because as a player I'm quite tactical and will use my environment to maximum advantage. Having a rule I can use to pry info from the Ref would be useful as a player.

Some guidelines as to the use of passive tasks, those tasks that don't affect the T/E sequence, would be good too.