Campaign Guide now on PDF
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
I've been waiting for months upon months for Campaign Guide to arrive. I now have it in paper and PDF format (thanks to Bits And Mortar, something I'm grateful for).
This week I have been reading through Vehicle Handbook and Campaign Guide. I've updated my GMs notes with references to both books in an attempt to integrate them with my Traveller sessions. I am going to have to change certain things that I do when running a game. Not the end of the world.
At the moment I am coming to the end of a reading break. I've committed to resume running Traveller games in April 2012. Only then will I know for sure if Campaign Guide is worth it.
This week I have been reading through Vehicle Handbook and Campaign Guide. I've updated my GMs notes with references to both books in an attempt to integrate them with my Traveller sessions. I am going to have to change certain things that I do when running a game. Not the end of the world.
At the moment I am coming to the end of a reading break. I've committed to resume running Traveller games in April 2012. Only then will I know for sure if Campaign Guide is worth it.
Also, it was a rant, late at night. My more though out approach to this is that, yes there have been problems with some of the books put out by mongoose, and in the most they are being dealt with (see the errata thread), but i do find it tiresome that some of the posters here just come along and moan about the same perceived issues with mongoose products, i it makes me wonder why they bother. If i dislike a product from a company, i vote with my wallet, so do not buy their products again.
I have yet to read the perfectly proof read role playing game or role playing games product, and i have read many. What matters to me is if the product is usable, and for the most part mongoose gets that bit right, despite some proof reading errors.
This is as always just my opinion, which of course will differ form others, and no personal attacks were every intended towards any poster.
And yes, i sort of agree with the way hdan put it as well.
Maybe i just have lower standards then everyone else here
I have yet to read the perfectly proof read role playing game or role playing games product, and i have read many. What matters to me is if the product is usable, and for the most part mongoose gets that bit right, despite some proof reading errors.
This is as always just my opinion, which of course will differ form others, and no personal attacks were every intended towards any poster.
And yes, i sort of agree with the way hdan put it as well.
Maybe i just have lower standards then everyone else here
I like the way jwpacker put it; This comes from a place of hurt not anger.
I like what Mongoose did for Traveller. I'm currently running a Mongoose Traveller campaign. I've offered to run a game at the next Open Day (and have run some in the past). I'm helping at the moment with proof reading the Droyne manuscript (and helped with Zhodani). I'm writing up some submissions to Mongoose for possible publication. I want to see Mongoose Traveller done well and thrive.
Thus it is always with great disappointment that I see simple errors continuing to be made. Simple in the fact that even Microsoft Word spell checker can identify some of these things. Simple in the fact that someone with two slightly functioning eyes and semi-concious could skim the text and find some of these issues. Some years back Matt assured us that there would be a new age of quality control and proof reading. Not a thing changed. Nothing. Nada. Same old fall-over-a-log errors are being made. Same reputation is reinforced. So the rants come from the realm of utter exasperation, not spite or spleen.
Counter arguments are usually;
i) If you don't like it, don't buy it. Done. I haven't purchased a Mongoose Traveller product for some time. I wait for others to do so, write their reviews, and, as in this case, decide not to give them my money. I'm not the only one. Good editing and proofing costs money, granted. But with Mongoose's reputation, I would wager they are loosing more money from these kinds of non-sales than it would cost to get this done properly.
ii) Other companies are just as bad or even worse. This is a great sophist approach to arguments. Start with a true premise and hope that it will cover up an illogical argument. By this type of logic, all governments in the world should be allowed to abuse and terrorise their citizens because there are many countries that do this already. That way leads to a minimal, "I can get away with it", approach. Well, I suppose if Mongoose want to consciously embrace being mediocre, then that's there prerogative. I'll refer to i) above and go elsewhere.
How could this move forward? I've said it before, I'll say it again. Firstly, I think the sausage-factory rate of production needs to be turned down a notch. Give the authors, editors, proof-readers a realistic amount of time to get the job done right. I know that economics comes into this, but so does a reputation for error-ridden products. (This is not just my opinion, as I know first-hand that a number of past Mongoose authors share the view.) Secondly, whoever is responsible for editing and proofing need to move on to something they are more capable of. That might sound insulting, but I'm afraid the truth of it is repeatedly demonstrable. There's no getting away from the fact that they are either not doing their job or not up to the task. Mongoose, as a company, need to get some competent people involved.
OK, my rant is over. Apologies if I've insulted anybody.
I like what Mongoose did for Traveller. I'm currently running a Mongoose Traveller campaign. I've offered to run a game at the next Open Day (and have run some in the past). I'm helping at the moment with proof reading the Droyne manuscript (and helped with Zhodani). I'm writing up some submissions to Mongoose for possible publication. I want to see Mongoose Traveller done well and thrive.
Thus it is always with great disappointment that I see simple errors continuing to be made. Simple in the fact that even Microsoft Word spell checker can identify some of these things. Simple in the fact that someone with two slightly functioning eyes and semi-concious could skim the text and find some of these issues. Some years back Matt assured us that there would be a new age of quality control and proof reading. Not a thing changed. Nothing. Nada. Same old fall-over-a-log errors are being made. Same reputation is reinforced. So the rants come from the realm of utter exasperation, not spite or spleen.
Counter arguments are usually;
i) If you don't like it, don't buy it. Done. I haven't purchased a Mongoose Traveller product for some time. I wait for others to do so, write their reviews, and, as in this case, decide not to give them my money. I'm not the only one. Good editing and proofing costs money, granted. But with Mongoose's reputation, I would wager they are loosing more money from these kinds of non-sales than it would cost to get this done properly.
ii) Other companies are just as bad or even worse. This is a great sophist approach to arguments. Start with a true premise and hope that it will cover up an illogical argument. By this type of logic, all governments in the world should be allowed to abuse and terrorise their citizens because there are many countries that do this already. That way leads to a minimal, "I can get away with it", approach. Well, I suppose if Mongoose want to consciously embrace being mediocre, then that's there prerogative. I'll refer to i) above and go elsewhere.
How could this move forward? I've said it before, I'll say it again. Firstly, I think the sausage-factory rate of production needs to be turned down a notch. Give the authors, editors, proof-readers a realistic amount of time to get the job done right. I know that economics comes into this, but so does a reputation for error-ridden products. (This is not just my opinion, as I know first-hand that a number of past Mongoose authors share the view.) Secondly, whoever is responsible for editing and proofing need to move on to something they are more capable of. That might sound insulting, but I'm afraid the truth of it is repeatedly demonstrable. There's no getting away from the fact that they are either not doing their job or not up to the task. Mongoose, as a company, need to get some competent people involved.
OK, my rant is over. Apologies if I've insulted anybody.
Ugh, how disappointing. I found jedavis's review to be quite helpful, as he was clearly sincere and obviously upset (as was said, reviews from a "hurt" customer are always believable).
And frankly, knowing that the book was written by the author of Robots really turns me off. That book had potential but was such a confusing mess with obviously no playtesting that actually using it is hard. That said, once I made some assumptions, I actually got a ton of use out of it.
And frankly, knowing that the book was written by the author of Robots really turns me off. That book had potential but was such a confusing mess with obviously no playtesting that actually using it is hard. That said, once I made some assumptions, I actually got a ton of use out of it.
I was just skim-checking the inside cover again and discovered that there actually were no playtester credits. That's very, very worrying, and something I guess I'll have to check for sooner next time. It does greatly confirm my suspicions that it was utterly unplaytested, though... I agree with jwpacker that "rush job" seems the most likely explanation.
@Old timer: Ah, yeah, I could see FFG operating like that. I did play Dark Heresy once, but I've mostly stayed away from their stuff; it's well out of my price range (and a bit too heavy a system for me, too; the setting would be fun for Traveller, though...).
@Old timer: Ah, yeah, I could see FFG operating like that. I did play Dark Heresy once, but I've mostly stayed away from their stuff; it's well out of my price range (and a bit too heavy a system for me, too; the setting would be fun for Traveller, though...).
Rusty_Unycorn
Mongoose
Ok, I think that most of us can agree that Mongoose needs to stop pumping out large amounts of product so quickly. As for reasonable time period, all we really need is six to eight months for production if the book isn't that complicated (And this includes playtesting). Set aside half a month to go over everything in the book with a fine-toothed comb and notice things that were left out or internally (and externally) inconsistent (Like the, what is it now, three? different hacking systems spread across three different books).
Putting grammar and typos aside, how much useful this book is, taking under consideration I have some ideas for near stellar Tech Level campaign in My Traveler Universe? For now I'have broad idea of what I want to run (exploration of planets, that are not responding for calls after downfall of interstellar travel), history sketch. I'm looking for a quick way to generate plots, hooks, local quircks and things like 'a side quests'.
Useful review - wont be buying.
Haven't now purchased a new MGT book for over two years. Hoping 2300, Solomani, and Aramis have been properly proofed - but in all honestly not optimistic. The farce of Secrets of the Ancients book just shows that QA is effectively non existant for Mongoose books.
Hope to be proved wrong soon, but will be waiting to read a range ofi reviews before buying anything else. Very disappointed.
Haven't now purchased a new MGT book for over two years. Hoping 2300, Solomani, and Aramis have been properly proofed - but in all honestly not optimistic. The farce of Secrets of the Ancients book just shows that QA is effectively non existant for Mongoose books.
Hope to be proved wrong soon, but will be waiting to read a range ofi reviews before buying anything else. Very disappointed.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
Just finished reading through the Campaign Guide. I can see exactly where jedavis is coming from (dragons, trolls and all), however, I think a lot depends on your ideas about what constitutes a "good" sci-fi rpg, or a good game of traveller. If your games are wild space opera, with a strong sense of absurdism then this book will work very well for you, jedavis in his longer review, described the CG as more Farscape than Firefly (but then what are the reavers if not vampiric zombies with high stats?). It reminds me more of episodes of Dr Who or even some Star Trek, "you arrive somewhere unknown, and wierd things start happening", and that vibe is going to suit some GMs and their players perfectly. Like a number of the MgT books, it is not really a "3I" book, or a hard science background, more a "take what you want, this won't suit everyone but will fit some" book. Think wild stories, and not neccessarily on a scientific or even rational basis.
None of the CG will find its way into the main game I run, which is very much Spinward Marches trading, odd jobs and fighting, with a hard science feel. However, in the summer I am planning to run a more light hearted one off game, and the CG has already given me some ideas for a bizarre and absurd sub-sector a million light years from Regina.
Two concluding thoughts, the proof reading is poor (my favourite is describing a rich and powerful noble as a "magnet" rather than a "magnate"), and I think calling it the "Campaign Guide" is bit misleading, something like "1001 Story Ideas" might sum it up better, I can see some people buying this thinking it is an important core book, which it is not.
Now, back to the new Vehicles goodness.
Egil
None of the CG will find its way into the main game I run, which is very much Spinward Marches trading, odd jobs and fighting, with a hard science feel. However, in the summer I am planning to run a more light hearted one off game, and the CG has already given me some ideas for a bizarre and absurd sub-sector a million light years from Regina.
Two concluding thoughts, the proof reading is poor (my favourite is describing a rich and powerful noble as a "magnet" rather than a "magnate"), and I think calling it the "Campaign Guide" is bit misleading, something like "1001 Story Ideas" might sum it up better, I can see some people buying this thinking it is an important core book, which it is not.
Now, back to the new Vehicles goodness.
Egil
Egil Skallagrimsson said:
Well. Zombie's could be explained by disease causing deterioration of higher brain function and increased aggression.
Actually I read some time ago about how zombie legend could have been born out of certain brain damages which caused damage to persons walking stability + heightened aggression.
As for orcs, trolls etc they can simply be local creatures of the planet which resemble the fantasy creatures enough that the discoverers dubbed them as such(if I landed on unknown planet and saw big flying creatures that breathe fire or something else then I sure as hell would dub them as dragon's
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
tneva82 said:Egil Skallagrimsson said:
Well. Zombie's could be explained by disease causing deterioration of higher brain function and increased aggression.
Actually I read some time ago about how zombie legend could have been born out of certain brain damages which caused damage to persons walking stability + heightened aggression.
As for orcs, trolls etc they can simply be local creatures of the planet which resemble the fantasy creatures enough that the discoverers dubbed them as such(if I landed on unknown planet and saw big flying creatures that breathe fire or something else then I sure as hell would dub them as dragon's
Oh yes, for some campaigns and games the Campaign Guide is going to be a real asset.
Egil
That was one hell of a slamming review and its just ruled out yet another book my Mongoose for me!
You know Old Timer your insinuation that all of us complainers are just trying to ruin Mongoose for the fun of it is just not on. I actually like Traveller a lot, and I love buying good Traveller books. But this pile of rubbish does not deserve to be on my shelf and I for one am glad that someone took the time to write an honest review of it and save me my hard earned money and a lot of frustration at having to try to utilise something as badly written as this product obviously is.
But I want to buy Traveller books. I really want to like the Mongoose stuff. Some of it I do, a lot - like the Core Rule Book and Spinward Marches and even the poorly synchronised CSC. But lately the editing etc has gone right off the scale. Talk with your wallet? I HAVE. I haven't bought a Mongoose product for ages. And every time I think of doing so a lousy product like this comes along to suppress any desire I once had.
Mongoose this is yet another one to add to your list of revised 2nd Versions now isn't it. Very, very, very, poor show. Well at least you are saving me money I suppose.
(Oh yes and I have also now taken Robots off my list of buyable books as well thanks to this thread as I know I probably wont like that one now either!)
To end on a positive note to keep Old Timer happy - at least the new vehicles book sounds possibly ok - nothing negative read yet anyway.....
You know Old Timer your insinuation that all of us complainers are just trying to ruin Mongoose for the fun of it is just not on. I actually like Traveller a lot, and I love buying good Traveller books. But this pile of rubbish does not deserve to be on my shelf and I for one am glad that someone took the time to write an honest review of it and save me my hard earned money and a lot of frustration at having to try to utilise something as badly written as this product obviously is.
But I want to buy Traveller books. I really want to like the Mongoose stuff. Some of it I do, a lot - like the Core Rule Book and Spinward Marches and even the poorly synchronised CSC. But lately the editing etc has gone right off the scale. Talk with your wallet? I HAVE. I haven't bought a Mongoose product for ages. And every time I think of doing so a lousy product like this comes along to suppress any desire I once had.
Mongoose this is yet another one to add to your list of revised 2nd Versions now isn't it. Very, very, very, poor show. Well at least you are saving me money I suppose.
(Oh yes and I have also now taken Robots off my list of buyable books as well thanks to this thread as I know I probably wont like that one now either!)
To end on a positive note to keep Old Timer happy - at least the new vehicles book sounds possibly ok - nothing negative read yet anyway.....
Nats, note in my post IMHO, no personal attack on anyone, if you feel i insinuated something about other traveller players, it was not there. Sorry if you feel that way, but it is my opinion, that is all. You have yours, it i neither wrong or right, much like mine.
I simply have a different standard to what i hold games to. Any product i buy is mined for ideas, and very rarely used as written. Some of the entries in the book i simply wont use or change, but it wont effect my enjoyment of traveller.
I not sure why you felt you had to end on a positive note on my behalf, if you don't like a product, you don't like a product, but i have as much right as you to say something about it and peoples views on this as you do.
I got flak for my view, oh no, my world ends.
I simply have a different standard to what i hold games to. Any product i buy is mined for ideas, and very rarely used as written. Some of the entries in the book i simply wont use or change, but it wont effect my enjoyment of traveller.
I not sure why you felt you had to end on a positive note on my behalf, if you don't like a product, you don't like a product, but i have as much right as you to say something about it and peoples views on this as you do.
I got flak for my view, oh no, my world ends.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
nats, I feel you are being a little too sweeping, just to even things up a bit
1. Yes, jedavis's certainly was, but as I pointed out, a lot will depend on your vision for your sci-fi game, I can see the CG being great for some styles of play.
2. Agreed, these are great books, and these two with HG get by far the most use, but the Aliens books, Reft Sector, most of the adventure books (Crowded Hours, Spinward Encounters etc), 1001 Characters, 760 Patrons (both editions), the career books (a bit over specialised for some games, but if we ever do a specifically Scout, Agent, Scoundrel or Psion campaign, I know exactly where to find the basics (even if we then change a lot)), are all very good, heck, its quite clear that even my personal bugbear, CSC, is popular with many players.
3. The new Vehicles book is very good, heartily recommended.
What I am trying to say is that Mongoose have done some excellent stuff with Trav over the last few years, and I can hardly wait for Deneb and Solomani.
Egil
nats said:
1. Yes, jedavis's certainly was, but as I pointed out, a lot will depend on your vision for your sci-fi game, I can see the CG being great for some styles of play.
2. Agreed, these are great books, and these two with HG get by far the most use, but the Aliens books, Reft Sector, most of the adventure books (Crowded Hours, Spinward Encounters etc), 1001 Characters, 760 Patrons (both editions), the career books (a bit over specialised for some games, but if we ever do a specifically Scout, Agent, Scoundrel or Psion campaign, I know exactly where to find the basics (even if we then change a lot)), are all very good, heck, its quite clear that even my personal bugbear, CSC, is popular with many players.
3. The new Vehicles book is very good, heartily recommended.
What I am trying to say is that Mongoose have done some excellent stuff with Trav over the last few years, and I can hardly wait for Deneb and Solomani.
Egil
Rusty_Unycorn
Mongoose
Robots was really good except for the build system. That just left out one very important little thing: Do arms and legs use slots or add slots? and examples. There weren't any of those IIRC.nats said:
Anyways, for Campaign Guide to really be a campaign guide, it needs to cover most or all of the bases. So far, we might have a good book for running a silly campaign.
Either rename, or rewrite. I'm thinking of buying a copy so that I can look it over and have a basis for doing a rewrite. Which I might submit. Who knows?
Rusty_Unycorn said:
It was a massively wasted opportunity to produce something that would really assist people's design process for creating adventures. I think that is why it is so annoying.
Personally I thought it was going to be hints/tips on good refereeing/playing, play examples of games (much like the old Book 0 which I really liked), advice on creating fleshed out worlds and adventures with flowcharts/plans provided for approaching the design process, as well as providing lists of pre-made designs that you could use that were missing from the Core Book - such as soldiers, guards, veterans/mercs, animals, events, gangster bosses, etc. It could have been so great. It ended up being rope. Just like several other Mongoose products in the past that are now having to be redone.
I just don't understand why its still happening. Why don't they just check with us first when they have plans to make a book to see exactly what we want? Why arent Mongoose taking a proactive approach ie stipulating what they want from their writers, instead of just accepting what their writers give them?
