[C&C] Conan in Castles & Crusades

So I decided to use C&C for a Conan game. I will use the d20 Conan book for the fluff and some general suggestions, but all the crunch will go out the window.
So, I abstracted the races in the d20 book, and came up with essentially three types:

1) Civilised humans. Standard PHB humans.

2) Barbarian humans. 1 Prime, Survival (as ranger), Track (as Ranger), Versatility (only suffer -2 penalty for nonproficient weapon use), Fearless (+2 to Charisma saves vs. fear effects).

3) Nomadic humans. 1 Prime, Survival (as ranger), Track (as Ranger), +1 to hit with a cultural weapon, Limited horsemanship (1st paragraph of the Horsemanship ability of Knights; can be applied to cultural mount, typically horse or camel).


In terms of Conan races, the above would read:
Barbarians: Cimmerian, Nordheimer, Himelian, Kushite, Pict
Nomad: Hyrkanian, Ghanata, Shemite

Civilised: All the Hyborian nations, Vendhyan, Zamorian, Zingaran, Stygian, Khitan


About the classes...

I see all of them available, with the exception of the spellcasters and the paladin.

- Barbarian (the class) would be the most common warrior type among the barbarian and nomad background.
- Bards would be found among the nordic cultures, both civilised and barbaric (possibly nomadic, too?)
- Monks would be found among the civilised eastern societies (Vendhya and Khitai come to mind)
- Knights. Probably not very appropriate, except in some civilised nations which started to build a primitive chivalric code. In Hyborian nations, these would be for example Poitain (southern Aquilonian province) and Zingara.
- Rogues and Assassins. Everywhere.
- Fighters. Among civilised nations, or as "high-born" among barbarian/nomads.
- Rangers. Among civilised nations, living on the border with barbaric nations (Aquilonians on the Pictish frontier come to mind here). Probably hunter-types among barbarian and nomads.
- Sorcerer. A new class, with different roles/backgrounds. Also serve as Priests among civilised nations, as shamans in barbaric/nomadic backgrounds.

I have ported the sorcerer over to C&C. I will post it later.

Comments are welcome!

Antonio
 
This sounds pretty awesome. I'd love to play.

C&C is my favorite class-based system, and I think your adaption sounds right.
 
Thanks for the kind words!

Now, I have been thinking about "mixing and matching" the C&C core classes with some of the more "Howardian" ideas in the d20 Conan book. I would like to use as much as possibile of the two systems, and try to go as rules-light as possible. Here are two "variant" classes of the fighter and rogue.
Note I assume the use of the d20 Conan weapon categories.

As always, comments are welcome!!



Thief (Dexterity) [variant Rogue]

HD: d8
BtH: +1/2 levels (0, +1, +1, +2, +2 etc.)
Weapon proficiency: Simple, light and one-handed martial weapons
Armor proficiency: light
Class abilities: All rogue abilities, plus: two weapon combat, attack style, eyes of the cat, fleet-footed, trap sense, opportunist attack, poisons, sorcerous protection, evasion.

Two weapon combat: Thieves excel at fighting with two weapons. When using the two weapon fighting maneuver, their penalties are -1 with the primary hand and -4 with the off hand. The dexterity modifier to hit still applies.

Attack style: at 1st level a thief chooses a weapon with which he is proficient. Whenever he uses this weapon, he gains +1 to hit, and the following damage increases:
Back attack: the damage multiplier increases by 1: x3 at 1st level, x4 at 5th level, x5 at 9th level.
Sneak attack: +1 bonus to damage (total +5).

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter he chooses another weapon.

Eyes of the cat: At 2nd level, the thief sees more clearly in the dark than many men can in full daylight. The thief can see outdoors twice as well as ordinary humans by starlight, moonlight, torchlight or other conditions of poor illumination. The thief can even distinguish colour and detail under these low-light conditions.

Trap Sense: At 3rd level, the thief gains a +1 bonus to Dexterity saving throws made to avoid traps and a +1 AC bonus against attacks by traps. Every three levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1 (+2 at 6th, +3 at 9th , +4 at 12th ).

Fleet-footed: At 4th level, whenever the thief wears light or no armour and is unencumbered, his movement rate increases by 10'.

Poisons: At 8th level (as assassin).

Special ability: at 6th, 10th, and 14th level thieves choose one of the following special abilities:

Sorcerous Protection: thieves often arrange for minor magical protection, or learn to create their own defences, so as to more safely plunder cursed tombs or Stygian caravans. The thief gains a +2 bonus to all saving throws (regardless of the attribute) against spells and spell-like effects.

Evasion
: if exposed to any effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Dexterity saving throw for half damage, the thief takes no damage with a successful saving throw. Evasion can only be used if the thief is wearing light or no armour.

Opportunist attack: Once per round, the thief can make a free attack against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character.


Soldier (Strength) [variant fighter]
Class abilities: as fighter, plus: Two weapon combat, Mounted combat, Formation combat

Two weapon combat: Soldiers excel at fighting with two weapons. When using the two weapon fighting maneuver, their penalties are -1 with the primary hand and -4 with the off hand. The dexterity modifier to hit still applies.

Mounted combat: At 1st level the fighter receives the benefits of the Horsemanship ability of Knights (restricted to the first paragraph describing the ability).

Formation Combat: At 3rd level the soldier learns to fight as part of a formation, rather than as an individual. He may select one of the following formations:

Heavy Cavalry: Whenever the soldier is mounted and has two mounted allies within 20 feet of him, he gains a +1 bonus to damage with any melee weapon. All three
must be mounted and in medium or heavy armour.

Heavy Infantry: Whenever the soldier has two allies adjacent to him, he gains a +1 bonus to his damage rolls with any melee weapon. All three must be on foot and in medium or heavy armour.

Light Cavalry: Whenever the soldier has two allies within 20 feet of him, he
gains a +1 bonus to all melee attack rolls. All three must be mounted and in light or no armour.

Skirmisher: Whenever the soldier has two allies within 10 feet of him, he gains a
+1 bonus to AC. All three must be on foot and in light or no armour.

The soldier may select a new formation at 7th, 11th and 15th levels. At 19th level the soldier’s bonus for fighting in formation increases to +2.
 
Here are other two classes.

Nomad (Constitution)
HD: d10
BtH: level-1
Weapon proficiency: Simple and martial; Can perform the Disarm maneuver
Armor proficiency: light, medium, shields
Class abilities: Track, Scale, Conceal, Move silently, Survival, Primal force, Primal might, Two weapon combat, Nomad charge, Mobility, Horsemanship.

Two weapon combat: nomads excel at fighting with two weapons. When using the two weapon fighting maneuver, their penalties are -2 with the primary hand and -5 with the off hand. The dexterity modifier to hit still applies.

Nomad Charge: A nomad of 4th level or higher gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls for any charge attack he makes. The bonus applies whether he makes the charge on foot or upon a mount of some kind. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 18th level.

Mobility: at 5th level the nomad gets a +2 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. At 10th level the nomad never provokes attacks of opportunity, as long as he moves at least 10 feet during a combat round. At 15th level the nomad may move at his full speed and still make an attack (without requiring a charge). This ability does not apply if the nomad is mounted. This ability is affected by the character wearing armor not allowed.
At 20th level he can use the ability also when mounted, applying its benefits also to his mount.

Horsemanship (Dexterity): as Knight's Horsemanship, can be applied to a mount of choice (usually horse or camel).




Pirate (Dexterity)
HD: d10
BtH: +1/2 levels (+0, +1, +1, +2, +2 etc.)
Weapon proficiency: Simple and martial; can perform the Disarm maneuver.
Armor proficiency: light
Class abilities: Climb, Move silently, Seamanship, Ferocious attack, Pirate code, To sail a road of blood and slaughter, Sneak attack, Combat sense, Mobility, Poison resistance, Navigation.

Seamanship: A 1st level pirate gains a +1 bonus to Dexterity checks and saves, as well as to AC, so long as he is aboard a ship or boat at sea. These bonuses increase by +1 every five levels thereafter.

Ferocious Attack: The pirate’s ferocity tends to overwhelm almost any opponent rapidly. On the first round of any combat, he may declare a ferocious attack. He gains a +1 bonus to his Initiative check and all melee attack and damage rolls that round. However, he is unable to defend himself very effectively during the ferocious attack and has a -1 penalty to his AC during the first round of combat. Furthermore, he may not make any Sneak attacks on the round in which he declares a Ferocious attack.
At 7th level the bonuses to Initiative, attack and damage rolls increase to +2 and the penalty to -2. Furthermore, the pirate gains an additional attack on the first round of combat.
At 13th level the bonuses increase to +3 and the penalty to -3. Furthermore, any opponent struck and damaged by the pirate during the first round of combat must make a Charisma saving throw or be stunned and unable to act for 1d4 rounds due to fear of the pirate. Note that if the pirate is also able to somehow perform a successful coup de grace on the first round of combat using his To Sail a Road of Blood and Slaughter class ability, any Charisma saving throws called for by the Ferocious Attack class ability have their CL increased by +2.
At 19th level the bonuses increase to +4 and the penalty to -4. In addition, if the pirate strikes any opponent during the first round of combat, any of that opponent’s allies who observe the ferocious attack must make Charisma saving throws or suffer a penalty
of -2 to attack rolls for 1d4 rounds.

Sneak attack: at 6th level, as Rogue's Sneak attack.
Furthermore, when sneak attacking with any bludgeoning weapon, the pirate can elect to deal increased subdual damage: only 1 point in 10 damage inflicted will be normal damage (usually it is 1 in 5).

Pirate Code: A 2nd level pirate may select one pirate code from the following: Barachan Smoke and Rockets, Black Coast Drums, Vilayet Sea Flags, or Zingaran Trumpets. Effectively, the knowledge of this code acts like an additional language, allowing for communication with other pirates who also know it at distances of up to several thousand feet, depending on weather, visibility conditions and the pirate's resources to produce the code.

To Sail a Road of Blood and Slaughter: A pirate of 2nd level or higher may perform a coup de grace as a free action up to once per round. This coup de grace never provokes an attack of opportunity, as the pirate is so used to dispatching helpless opponents that he can do so before an opponent can react.
Furthermore, he gains a +2 bonus to any Charisma checks to intimidate, which he may make for one round immediately following the performance of the coup de grace, if it was successful.

Combat sense: At 4th level, as Barbarian's Combat sense.

Mobility: at 5th level the pirate gets a +2 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. At 10th level the pirate never provokes attacks of opportunity, as long as he moves at least 10 feet during a combat round. At 15th level the pirate may move at his full speed and still make an attack (without requiring a charge).
This ability is affected by the character wearing armor not allowed.

Poison Resistance: At 8th level, the pirate gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against poisons, drugs and alcohol. His dissolute lifestyle has allowed him to build up an incredible tolerance to almost any poison or drug known to man.
At 14th level this bonus increases to +2 and at 20th level to +3. Furthermore, at 20th level he only suffers half effect (rounded down) from any poison or drug, even if he fails his
saving throw against it and no effect whatsoever if he succeeds at his saving throw. This also applies to penalties caused by the poison. For example, a hallucinogenic poison that would usually cause the victim to suffer a -4 penalty to all attack rolls will only cause the pirate to suffer a -2 penalty, even if he fails his saving throw.

Navigation: At 10th level the pirate automatically knows where he is at sea, even in
the deep sea out of sight of land. He has a detailed mental map of all the lands he has already visited and how to get there from where he is.
 
Spectator said:
Great job Rabidonarath!
Thanks! Much appreciated! Next in the line: Sorcerer and Borderer.
Actually, I ditched the Scholar as a class, since most adventuring Scholars will be sorcerers anyway...
 
Herewith the Sorcerer

Sorcerer (Intelligence)

All sorcerers concentrate in some way or another on knowledge, so Intelligence is a class Prime. They will also need Charisma, to deal with demons, summon servitors and perform rituals; and Wisdom, for sheer magical power. Some of the Eastern scholars will also benefit from a high Wisdom as well as Dexterity (and usually will multiclass as Monks).

HD: d6
BtH: +1/3 levels (0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2 etc.)
Weapons: simple
Armor: none
Abilities: Bonus languages, Background, Bonus spell, Decipher script, Knowledge is power, Literacy, Iron will, Power points, Advanced spell, Sorcery Style, Sacrifice, Adept.

Background: Every sorcerer must choose a background for himself at 1st level. The background indicates the manner in which he came by his knowledge.
A sorcerer may only ever begin the game with one background but at the Castle Keeper’s discretion he may gain an additional background or backgrounds during play. For example, an independent may call up a demon and make a pact with it, then
some time later be accepted as an acolyte by a sorcerous society.
Likewise, a lay priest or acolyte may elect to conduct a little independent research, just as though he were an independent himself but in most cases his religion or coven will at best frown upon such impertinence and at worst will put him to death if they catch him.
The choice of background should be made in conjunction with the Castle Keeper, who will inform the player of which options are available in his campaign.

Acolyte: Acolytes are members of a coven or sorcerous society, or are occasionally
apprenticed to a lone sorcerer. They are usually in thrall to their coven leaders, though they can gain a great deal of power this way. The drawback is that they rarely understand said power without their masters’ direct assistance.
An acolyte must always select a specifi c group to join, or a master to whom he may apprentice himself. An acolyte may only ever learn new sorcery styles or advanced spells (see below) known to his masters. Depending on his superiors and on the nature of the society, he may have a free choice between the various styles and spells they know, or his progress may be highly regimented so that his sorcery styles and spells are always assigned for him rather than chosen by him. Most sorcerous societies require a student to follow a strict curriculum of specific spells for the first ten levels but allow him to learn whatever he wills after that, so long as they can teach it to him or he can discover it for himself.
Sorcerers from civilised lands often take on apprentices. This is an accepted method of learning found from Stygia to Khitai, even if one cannot find a larger sorcerous society to join. Some of the more primitive regions such as Kush also have village sorcerers,
along with the more shamanic or witch-doctor style priests; these sorcerers, also known as Witchmen or Witch-Finders, are employed on a freelance basis to cast spells for clients and often take on apprentices to whom they can pass on their skills.

Independent: Independents are the most versatile variety of sorcerer, since they have no particular ties to any authority. However, they also have no one to teach them or to guide them through their sorcerous paths and so must work a good deal harder to gain access to any true secrets. Though at best their advancement can be highly flexible, at worst it is simply haphazard, with the independent sorcerer simply picking up a little knowledge here and there as he goes.
Every time an independent gains the New Sorcery Style or Advanced Spell class features, he must make a Intelligence save. The CL is 0 for New Sorcery Styles
or 5 for Advanced Spells. Success indicates that he may choose the style he will learn. If he fails, the Castle Keeper will select a style for him at random from among those he does not currently know but for which he meets the prerequisites. If his check result was less than 10, he does not gain a sorcery style at all but must study a further month to attempt again the check. See the New Sorcery Style and Advanced Spell class features.

Pact: A sorcerer who makes a pact with a demonic entity or other dark force to learn sorcery is in a very similar state to that of an acolyte to a sorcerers’ ring or coven, since he is often effectively in thrall to the source of his knowledge. He has a lot more
choice as to what he learns; however, the master has no human compunctions to prevent him from forcing the poor sorcerer to perform the direst of acts. Furthermore, he will begin the game at least somewhat corrupt, for no truly decent sorcerer makes
pacts with demons.
A sorcerer with a pact begins the game with a Corruption of 1. At 1st level, he must choose the New Sorcery Style: Summoning and the spell demonic pact. On gaining New Sorcery Styles or Advanced Spells, he may choose either to do his own researches, in which case he must make a Intelligence save as though he were an independent, or else risk further Corruption by calling up the entity with whom he has the pact once more. If he does the latter, he may freely choose which style or spell he learns, so long as it is one the entity knows but he must also make a Corruption check for dealing with the demon once more.
A sorcerer with a pact will start the game with the Demonic bonus language available. He must expend a language slot as usual to learn to speak it.
The Castle Keeper is always free to rule that player character sorcerers may not begin the game with a pact. This is particularly appropriate in short-term or one-off campaigns, where the natural disadvantage of the pact sorcerer (namely the Corruption
he gains, which will someday almost certainly doom him, one way or another) may have little impact on play. This background is better balanced for long-term campaigns,
offering immediate power at the cost of one’s soul, or worse.

Lay Priest: sorcerers who choose the lay priest background are attached to a temple for purposes of study but with little or no religious authority.
If they wish, they can work their way up to the position of fully ordained priest, which brings with it a number of benefits and responsibilities.
Priests, whether they are lay priests or fully ordained, usually have access to some form or other of counter-sorcery with which to combat evil cults. The precise nature of each priest and which magical abilities (if any) are available to him will vary depending on both the deity he worships and his own honesty– or lack of it.
Priests are treated as acolytes in that they must gain sorcery styles known to their religion. They do not usually need to learn their styles in a specific order but in most cases their religion will offer only a very limited selection of styles in the first place. Most higher-level priests have either conducted independent studies themselves in secret, or have even more secretly made a pact with a demon or joined a sorcerous society.
The shamans found in barbaric regions such as the Pictish Wilderness can usually be treated as lay priests, though each tribe or village usually has only two or three shamans at any one time. A shaman might have the power of an ordained Priest, but will not have had any official ordination and may have an apprentice or two.
A 4th level sorcerer with the lay priest background may choose to become an ordained priest. This will bring a number of social and political benefits, as well as some restrictions. Many of these benefi ts and restrictions are dependent on the religion. These benefits always include the right to command followers of the same religion,
allowing priests to gain bonuses to their Leadership scores. Furthermore, the priest gains a +1 bonus to Charisma checks when dealing with other characters who follow the same religious path as he does. In some regions, this can mean entire nations. This bonus is cumulative with the similar bonus from having the same Allegiance as the target, if applicable. Finally, the priest has certain duties at temple that fully occupy him for at least six months of every year; it is his choice as to when. In return for fulfi lling these duties, he gains an annual stipend of 10 sp/sorcerer level, as well as free room and board at the temple whenever he is working there.

Bonus languages: if the sorcerer has high enough intelligence, he may choose exotic and/or forgotten languages which are not available to him by his racial selection. Examples of forgotten languages are Demonic and Acheronian.

Decipher script (Intelligence): as Rogue

Knowledge is power (Intelligence): as Bard's Legend lore
Typical CLs:
CL Type of Knowledge
0 Common, known by at least a substantial minority of the local population.
5 Uncommon but available, known by only a few people in the area.
10 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
15 Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who do not understand the significance of the knowledge.

Literacy: Regardless of their racial background, sorcerers are considered literate in all the languages they can speak.

Sorcery Style: At 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the sorcerer gains a new sorcery style, along with the basic spell associated with it.. Note that the sorcerer may or may not be permitted to choose his new sorcery style himself, depending on his Background class feature.

Power Points: A 1st level sorcerer learns to access his own personal magical energy. This is referred to as Base Power Points, or Base PP. A beginning sorcerer has Base PP equal to 4 + Wisdom Modifier, to a minimum of one point.
Power points are used when casting spells and creating magical objects. They can be regained by rest or the use of various lotus concoctions, or temporarily increased by various means, most commonly by sacrificing one or more humans. For most characters, their power points can rise to a maximum of double their Base Power Points.
If for some reason a character already has Base Power Points when he becomes a sorcerer, usually by being a Dabbler, he does not gain ‘new’ Base Power Points as above. Instead, he receives a one-time bonus of +2 to his already acquired Base Power Points.
At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, the sorcerer’s Base Power Points increase by +1.
Maximum Power Points: As sorcerers become more experienced and knowledgeable, they become able to store far more magical power in their bodies, so long as it is available to them by means of sacrifice or some artefact or other. At 6th level, a sorcerer’s maximum Power Points rise to triple his Base Power Points, rather than double as is usual for most characters. At 13th level it rises again to quadruple his Base Power Points and at 20th level to quintuple his Base Power Points.

Advanced Spell: At 3rd level and every level thereafter, the sorcerer improves his knowledge of any one of the sorcery styles he already knows by gaining any one of the advanced spells listed under the style. As with the Sorcery Style class feature, the sorcerer may or may not be permitted to choose his advanced spell himself, depending on his Background class feature.
Note that when a sorcerer gains Advanced Spell and Sorcery Style simultaneously upon gaining a new level, he may choose to gain the Advanced Spell in the Sorcery Style just gained.

Bonus Spell: From 3rd level the sorcerer becomes eligible for a small number of
bonus advanced spells, depending on his Intelligence. His maximum possible number of bonus spells is equal to his Intelligence bonus, if any. However, he can gain only one bonus spell at 3rd level and an additional bonus spell every four levels thereafter, whatever his Intelligence.

Sacrifice: At 2nd level, if you kill a helpless character or creature in a ritualistic manner, you can gain Power Points from your victim’s death. For each full 4 hit points he had (before subtracting any he lost while you inflicted the death blow) you gain 1 PP, which may either be added to your own PP total or used immediately in another spell.

At 4th level, when you torture a victim to death in a ritualistic manner, if you take at least fifteen minutes to do so you gain 1 PP for every full 3 hp they had to start with. If you are able to spin the process out for an hour or more, you gain 1 PP for every full 2 hp they had at the start of the torture. The victim must be bound or otherwise helpless. If for some reason you need to know how much damage you have inflicted on them at some time part way through the process (for example, if the victim is rescued before you finish them off ), assume that you had to inflict a minimum of 1d3 hit points damage per five minutes, but could inflict as much as your standard melee attack damage every round if desired (this latter damage assumes that you either have a particularly tough opponent, or are choosing to kill them quickly because they are about to be rescued), or anything in between. If you kill them before the 15 minutes is up, you only gain 1 PP for every full 4 hp they had, just as with a standard ritual sacrifice. You only gain the PP when the victim dies, not during the torture. It is impossible to gain any power by torturing a victim for a little while, healing him and then torturing him some more.

At 6th level, you can take advantage of a chance to slay an opponent by sorcery or combat (melee or ranged) and gain magical energy from so doing, just as though you had ritually sacrificed him in a more formal manner, by simply dedicating his death to your dark gods or your own power. This modality may not be used together with torture on the same victim, except in the case of certain spells. It is simply not possible for most spells or weapons to cause sufficient pain to allow the benefits of torture to work when slaying a victim in a quick and businesslike manner, as in combat.

Iron Will: At 5th level, the sorcerer gains a +2 bonus to charisma saving throws.

Adept: At 12th level you have honed your mastery of a sorcery style to the utmost precision and speed. Choose a sorcery style in which you know at least three spells. Whenever you cast a spell from that sorcery style, the casting time is halved. An appropriate spell that would usually take one round to cast may be cast at CT 1. An appropriate spell that would usually take CT 1 to cast may be cast as a free action but you may still not cast more than one spell per round.

Code:
            Bonus 
            Power 
Level  Points  Max PP Sorcery styles Advanced spell Bonus spell
1         0              x2                 1                         0                      0
2       +1             x2                 2                         0                      0
3       +1             x2                 2                         1                      1
4       +1             x2                 3                         2                      1
5       +1             x2                 3                         3                      1
6       +2             x3                 3                         4                      1
7       +2             x3                 3                         5                      2
8       +2             x3                 4                         6                      2
9       +2             x3                 4                         7                      2
10     +3            x3                  4                         8                      2
11     +3            x3                  4                         9                      3
12     +3            x3                  5                        10                     3
13     +3            x4                  5                        11                     3
14     +4            x4                  5                        12                     3
15     +4            x4                  5                        13                     4
16     +4            x4                  6                        14                     4
17     +4            x4                  6                        15                     4
18     +5            x4                  6                        16                     4
19     +5            x4                  6                        17                     5
20     +5            x5                  7                        18                     5

All numbers are cumulative
 
Once again, superb job rabindranath72!

You really put a lot of thought and effort into this and I have to say that C&C is a fun fast system that brings it old school.
 
In response to the sorceror:
I think you should incorporate the feats Meditation, Great Meditation, and Magic Power Attack.
 
This is a great conversion so far :)

I like C&C for its simplicity, but IMHO the Conan RPG has some elements that capture the essence of REH's sword & sorcery a bit better.

The main thing I personally would add to this is a revision of the barbarian class, as you've done w/ the Rogue (Thief) and Fighter (Soldier). Having read the C&C PHB, I find nothing appealing about the C&C barbarian - it resembles a strange berserker/meat-shield hybrid - while the Conan RPG's barbarian borders on overpowered.

I would make the barbarian strength-based, not constitution-based, and replace C&C's Primal Fury with Conan's Crimson Mist or Fighting Madness. I've read most of REH's Conan stories and I've never seen Conan fail to distinguish friend from foe. Other elements of the two versions of the class - such as Uncanny Dodge - do match up well.

One other thing I would definitely keep from Conan which I feel is much better than C&C (or any version of D&D) is having characters with both attack and defense bonuses, while armor reduces damage.
 
J-Star said:
This is a great conversion so far :)

I like C&C for its simplicity, but IMHO the Conan RPG has some elements that capture the essence of REH's sword & sorcery a bit better.

The main thing I personally would add to this is a revision of the barbarian class, as you've done w/ the Rogue (Thief) and Fighter (Soldier). Having read the C&C PHB, I find nothing appealing about the C&C barbarian - it resembles a strange berserker/meat-shield hybrid - while the Conan RPG's barbarian borders on overpowered.

I would make the barbarian strength-based, not constitution-based, and replace C&C's Primal Fury with Conan's Crimson Mist or Fighting Madness. I've read most of REH's Conan stories and I've never seen Conan fail to distinguish friend from foe. Other elements of the two versions of the class - such as Uncanny Dodge - do match up well.

One other thing I would definitely keep from Conan which I feel is much better than C&C (or any version of D&D) is having characters with both attack and defense bonuses, while armor reduces damage.
Thanks for the feedback!
Actually, I am working on an updated Barbarian. I agree with all your points (except I will probably make them Con based still). I will definitely add Versatility, Track and Survival.

I disagree with the attack and defense bonuses and armor. By definition (since the times of Gary Gygax who defined the concept) armor class has been about not being damaged, NOT not being hit (up to and including the latest D&D 4e).
It is a subtle difference, but it is there. Every combat round implies a lot going on. Each missed attack implies a mix of reactions from the defender.
I prefer my games to be as abstract as possible in this regard (as C&C does), and I actually found in practice that the additional detail that the Conan RPG introduces with respect to defenses and AC is only a burden without giving much in return (YMMV of course).
 
Spectator said:
In response to the sorceror:
I think you should incorporate the feats Meditation, Great Meditation, and Magic Power Attack.
I was exactly thinking about it. Still working out the details.
Thanks again!
 
I also prefer simple, abstract rules over complicated, highly tactical combat systems in RPG's.

That being said, you simply can't recreate the sword-and-sorcery of Robert E. Howard's stories or the Conan comics using Gary Gygax's old-fashioned armor class rules; they make melee characters way too dependent on cumbersome armor and non-Howardian magic items for defense. There's no way a half-naked barbarian can take down armored guards or fierce monsters under the Gygaxian system.

I think the additions to the d20 system added by the Conan version - ability score increases and dodge/parry bonuses - are necessary in order to simulate the source material. To recreate Conan of Howard's stories and the comics using the Gygaxian system, you would need to outfit him with a belt of giant strength, loincloth +5, & bracers of defense +5! That's hardly in tone with the sword-and-sorcery of the Hyborian Age.

I love the creations of both Robert E. Howard and Gary Gygax, but they don't mix very well. As much as I admire and appreciate all the work you've done so far with your conversion, I don't think Conan can be cleanly ported to C&C. I think you're better off taking the Conan RPG and stripping it down to a rules-light system, similar to the way C&C was created by stripping down D&D. With the great work you've done already with the character classes, I'd say you're halfway there!
 
I full agree with your analysis. In fact, I have not been clear in my descriptions. I intend to use the best of Dodge or Parry defence for each class, as reported in the Conan game. But they are used as abstract measures, much like canonic Armor Class. And when a character wears armor, it will take the best of his "natural" armor class and the one provided by armor.
 
J-Star said:
I think you're better off taking the Conan RPG and stripping it down to a rules-light system, similar to the way C&C was created by stripping down D&D. With the great work you've done already with the character classes, I'd say you're halfway there!
Actually, I have been struggling with this for a loooong time. I have come to a "compromise" system, in which I scrap wholesale the combat chapter in the d20 Conan game and reduce the skill list and feats, and eliminate DR and the different defense scores. I am currently testing the system on rpol, and it seems to work quite well.
 
rabindranath72 said:
I full agree with your analysis. In fact, I have not been clear in my descriptions. I intend to use the best of Dodge or Parry defence for each class, as reported in the Conan game. But they are used as abstract measures, much like canonic Armor Class. And when a character wears armor, it will take the best of his "natural" armor class and the one provided by armor.

The only problem you run into with this approach is that "natural AC" improves with level the way Dodge and Parry improve in the Conan game... so you have low-level characters who need armor to survive and high-level characters who are actually better off without it. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

IMHO, the entire Gygaxian concept of "Armor Class" is flawed from the beginning. The Gygaxian fighter gets better at hitting things with his sword but not at using his sword to deflect an enemy's attack, and has to stand there and hope his suit of armor protects him.

Just as martial artists learn how to punch, block and kick... and fencers learn how to thrust and parry... I believe PC's in an RPG should improve in both attacking and defending in combat and armor-as-DR is the way to go.

As long as we're going to stick with the Gygaxian concepts of class, level, and rolling a d20, here's an alternate system I thought of that can be both simple and accurate...

Give every class one number, call it a Combat Bonus or something, that applies to both attacking and defending in combat, and improves with level.

Attack = d20 roll + Combat Bonus + Strength bonus

Defense = 10 + Combat Bonus + Dexterity bonus

Weapons have a damage range based on a die roll

Armor has a DR value

If the attack roll total exceeds the defense value, roll for weapon damage and subtract DR value of the armor

Dex can replace Str on the attack roll for certain (finesse) weapons, and use of a shield can add +1 to the defense value.


Hardly reinventing the wheel here. I think that is almost as simple as C&C's combat and still preserves the attack-and-defend, armor-as-DR elements of the Conan game which, IMHO, are much better suited to Hyborian Age sword-and-sorcery than the Gygaxian approach.
 
J-Star said:
IMHO, the entire Gygaxian concept of "Armor Class" is flawed from the beginning. The Gygaxian fighter gets better at hitting things with his sword but not at using his sword to deflect an enemy's attack, and has to stand there and hope his suit of armor protects him.
Actually the superior capability of fighting classes is shown by their hit points and the structure of the combat round. If you recall how Gary Gygax defined them in the DMG, they include skill, feints, parries, rolling with damage, luck, etc.
Also, AD&D1e had a mechanic for parries which worked quite well (Str to hit bonus was to be subtracted from attacker's hit roll).

I am not sure that some classes would not be better off than unarmored ones to give a stronger representation of some archetypes (for example, monks get better than ANY kind of armor at some point); it is not about realism IMO.

Anyways, I like your ideas there! Might give some thought as to how insert them in the game, so that they scale with C&C's combat system.

Thanks for the feedback again!
 
rabindranath72 said:
Actually the superior capability of fighting classes is shown by their hit points and the structure of the combat round. If you recall how Gary Gygax defined them in the DMG, they include skill, feints, parries, rolling with damage, luck, etc.

Yes, I do remember this... but at the end of the day it all goes out the window when lost hit points have to be recovered with a cleric's cure light/serious/critical wounds spell. Regardless of what Gary Gygax said hit points are supposed to represent, at the end of the day they still fuction more like physical injury than anything else.


rabindranath72 said:
Also, AD&D1e had a mechanic for parries which worked quite well (Str to hit bonus was to be subtracted from attacker's hit roll).

That's not bad. I hadn't heard of this b/c I got my intro to PnP RPG's in 1992 with the D&D (OD&D) Rules Cyclopedia followed by the AD&D 2nd Ed. core books a year later. From what I've gathered over the years it seems 1st Ed had a lot of good features that never made back into 2nd Ed.

Having played a handful of RPG systems, some derived from Gygaxian origins and some not - D&D, AD&D2E, D&D 3.x, Conan, GURPS - I am a firm believer in attack and defense based on character combat skill and armor as DR. The key is to have a simple, elegant system that covers this.
 
Actually, if one is going to "abstract" the nature of hit points, and interpret their meaning, even interpreting the effects of cure spells should follow the same idea.
For example, in my campaigns, I stipulated the interpretation that cure spells worked on abstract "groups of wounds". So, a single 6 hit points wound which was about to kill a 1st level character (and which was more severe, by definition, than a 6 hit point wound inflicted on a 10th level character) could be fully cured by a cure light wounds. Whereas the same wound on a 10th level fighter was certainly smaller, but it still was a distinct wound.
So, a bit of simple interpretation solved any "realism" issues.

I guess we may simply agree to disagree w.r.t. damage reduction and similar topics :)

Regarding the other interesting rules in AD&D 1e, there were quite a few, for example:
1) If characters did not wear helmets 50% of the attacks from intelligent enemies hit the unprotected AC10 head, whereas the chance dropped to 1/6 for nonintelligent enemies.

2) Surprise rounds could give more than one turn of action, and missile fire was tripled during surprise. Ranged weapons could be really lethal and make the difference between winning a fight or losing it.

3) The attack table was nonlinear. A roll of 20 was not an automatic hit, rather a "range" of ACs was hit. Also, ACs only ranged from 10 to -10, but thanks to the nonlinear table, some ACs were automatically impossible to hit unless at least a +1 weapon was available.

4) There was a rule which worked similarly to the d20 Conan "a flagon of wine". Characters could be stabilised by drinking a strong liquor!

5) Clerics could turn undead and demons/devils.
 
Have you done the grand compilation of all things Rabindarath related to this topic?
If so, could you please PM me?
I'd love to see them and play them, thanks!
 
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