Build your star ships on High tech worlds, save big?
- Thread starter DFW
- Start date
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
Some of us 'get it' but again... the SOUND of what's being claimed as the cost reductions seem a little "severely over optimistic"barnest2 said:
Then there is the periodic 'revaluation of the Imperial Credit', inflation over time between revaluations, future value of a present amount balanced against the present value of a future amount, and total capital amortization of the physical plant and HR/Training expenditures required for all these 'cost saving Higher-TL processes' due to 'downsizing' and 'job obsoletionization', etc.
barnest2 said:
Yeah, I get it.. But the question would be... why? And it's not quite logical either.
There are some instances where a screw made at TL-15 works and looks and is sized exactly the same as a TL-9 screw. But there's a limit to what you could (or would) do. The books give a bit of a handwavium to all this, and its not logical at time (like many rules I suppose).
But in some instances, I am not sure it would be possible. Today you would have a helluva time trying to build a 1940s radar set, or even one built in 1970. Technology has moved on, the machinery to make such things doesn't exist, the know-how is pretty much gone too. And, of course, why in the world would you build something like that since it is far inferior, and should cost more?
Some things do make sense... but not starships, at least not with a huge tech jump. Besides how do you account for when the rules say your TL-9 missile bay is 30% smaller when they originated at TL-6? So a 30ton bay is the same, but just smaller as the 50ton bay?
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
Star Trek (Original): Episode-"Botany Bay"phavoc said:
Scene: Our intrepid heros of Kirk, McCoy, Scotty (and maybe some others)
Kirk-"Mr. Scott, do you think you can get things working again?"
Scotty-"Eye Captan, These are tran-SIS-tor circuits, solid state not our modern tech. I can't wait to tear into this and study up on this old technology"
DISCLAIMER: Not exact quotes, but the important parts are there. The Original Series was in the 23rd century (2200's), Next Gen a mere 76 years after that (24th Century, 2300's). So lets say 250 years from when the Botany Bay was built is when this happens in that storyline.. 250 years and what, 2 tech levels for "1990's" tech to be so out of date it's only been heard of but never study it?
The original series had AM/FM transceivers, video screens, etc. All done with 23rd century tech, but still a viewscreen could only be made so small before you couldn't read it, communicators so small you can't effectively utilize them, and phasers (energy weapons) so small before you couldn't effectively hold them in your hand.
And the process of making the plastic bodies, the knobs, the housings, etc probably still cost the same they did 100 years ago (unless inflation set in again).
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
First off before people get a bit, heated, here.
The Traveller economy is not a viable model for an economy it’s an RPG made simple to be playable. It must be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
Now in terms of making stuff more cheaply at high tech levels.
Materials. Higher tech manufacturing is generally able to use cheaper (not better) materials. That tech 4 shotgun with its lathe carved stock that took a craftsman several hours to shape or the ballistic plastic stock that took 20 seconds to create using one of the Nanite forges/Variable shape moulds/laser or plasma cutting/Disintegrator shapers. One of the last Tzars of Russia had an extremely valuable dinner set for feasts. It was much admired and prized for its value, it was made of aluminium. At the time so hard to make it was worth as much as gold. Can anyone today imagine the cheap light and very plentiful aluminium being rarer than gold.
Manufacturing. Improvements in tech lead to faster and less manpower intensive construction across the board. Even with the backwards and primitive technology usage in the Traveller 3rdI the higher end factories are going to be heavily automated, this makes them cheaper (no wages), increases volume (robots don’t sleep) and increases the quality to a degree since you eliminate the lower end production (unless you are ripping off your customers).
Designs. The 3rd Imperium has worlds ranging from tech 0 to tech 16. Often you find tech 15 worlds within a few jumps on the main of much lower worlds. This to a great extend means that all manufacturers need to keep the designs and plans available for a vast technological range of items. While the tech 15 world may have been settled at tech 12 and gone up from there and may never have used a single electrical valve on the world it has the ability to make them with its advanced factories and two or three jumps down the main may be a world that stubbornly remains tech 7 and uses millions of them each year. To do business in the 3rdI a manufacturer needs to be able to build for many markets and many techs.
The Traveller economy is not a viable model for an economy it’s an RPG made simple to be playable. It must be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
Now in terms of making stuff more cheaply at high tech levels.
Materials. Higher tech manufacturing is generally able to use cheaper (not better) materials. That tech 4 shotgun with its lathe carved stock that took a craftsman several hours to shape or the ballistic plastic stock that took 20 seconds to create using one of the Nanite forges/Variable shape moulds/laser or plasma cutting/Disintegrator shapers. One of the last Tzars of Russia had an extremely valuable dinner set for feasts. It was much admired and prized for its value, it was made of aluminium. At the time so hard to make it was worth as much as gold. Can anyone today imagine the cheap light and very plentiful aluminium being rarer than gold.
Manufacturing. Improvements in tech lead to faster and less manpower intensive construction across the board. Even with the backwards and primitive technology usage in the Traveller 3rdI the higher end factories are going to be heavily automated, this makes them cheaper (no wages), increases volume (robots don’t sleep) and increases the quality to a degree since you eliminate the lower end production (unless you are ripping off your customers).
Designs. The 3rd Imperium has worlds ranging from tech 0 to tech 16. Often you find tech 15 worlds within a few jumps on the main of much lower worlds. This to a great extend means that all manufacturers need to keep the designs and plans available for a vast technological range of items. While the tech 15 world may have been settled at tech 12 and gone up from there and may never have used a single electrical valve on the world it has the ability to make them with its advanced factories and two or three jumps down the main may be a world that stubbornly remains tech 7 and uses millions of them each year. To do business in the 3rdI a manufacturer needs to be able to build for many markets and many techs.
There are quite a few real world examples of vehicles intentionally built
on a lower technology level, just think of the Japanese pickups seen in
South East Asia and Africa or the various types of small "bush planes"
sold to developing nations.
These vehicles intentionally use few, if any, electronics, and compared to
them their counterparts sold, for example, in Europe are driving or flying
computers - which could not be sold in such markets, because the local
mechanic would not know what to do to repair them if they break down.
The same is true for industrial equipment, there are also often more sim-
ple and rugged low tech versions available for customers in countries
where there is no high tech support infrastructure to keep them working,
or where the necessary skills to operate the high tech version is extreme-
ly rare.
And it is of course true for weaponry, few of the major powers would be
willing to export their newest technology, so most export versions inten-
tionally use yesterday's (often yesterdecade's) technology, to ensure the
technological advantage of the producing nations in the case of a conflict.
As for Traveller, I also doubt that a TL 15 economy would produce gear
of TL 5, but as it is described in the books the differences between, say,
TL 15 and TL 12 are much smaller than those between, for example, TL 8
and TL 5. Therefore I would have no problem at all to imagine a TL 15
economy producing TL 12 starships, especially as this gives a huge com-
petitive advantage over the TL 12 producers of such ships.
on a lower technology level, just think of the Japanese pickups seen in
South East Asia and Africa or the various types of small "bush planes"
sold to developing nations.
These vehicles intentionally use few, if any, electronics, and compared to
them their counterparts sold, for example, in Europe are driving or flying
computers - which could not be sold in such markets, because the local
mechanic would not know what to do to repair them if they break down.
The same is true for industrial equipment, there are also often more sim-
ple and rugged low tech versions available for customers in countries
where there is no high tech support infrastructure to keep them working,
or where the necessary skills to operate the high tech version is extreme-
ly rare.
And it is of course true for weaponry, few of the major powers would be
willing to export their newest technology, so most export versions inten-
tionally use yesterday's (often yesterdecade's) technology, to ensure the
technological advantage of the producing nations in the case of a conflict.
As for Traveller, I also doubt that a TL 15 economy would produce gear
of TL 5, but as it is described in the books the differences between, say,
TL 15 and TL 12 are much smaller than those between, for example, TL 8
and TL 5. Therefore I would have no problem at all to imagine a TL 15
economy producing TL 12 starships, especially as this gives a huge com-
petitive advantage over the TL 12 producers of such ships.
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
Captain Jonah and 'somebody' described things.
My 20 years in the USAF my 'career' was Electronics Technician focused around the airfield, ground-to-air comm, and the ATC Tower.
In those 20 years I watched the primary tower/Rapcon control console go from a mass of toggle switches controlling fairly good sized relays - to solid state control circuits with backbit push switches (multiple colors to indicate status) - LCD touch screens and a Windows based computer control system that was programmable for each controller's preference on what buttons existed where what they were labeled did etc.
Amazingly, most of the original frames were still used as the newer console "guts" were installed yet each advancement cost more than the last (and the ATC console is used world wide).
With fewer moving parts than the last version, not requiring a new frame/housing (and these consoles sit at least 3 people) you would think that they would get LESS expensive since they are using proven technology that is already in 'mass' production.
Well, maybe less expensive to make, but not less expensive for the consumer. :wink:
My 20 years in the USAF my 'career' was Electronics Technician focused around the airfield, ground-to-air comm, and the ATC Tower.
In those 20 years I watched the primary tower/Rapcon control console go from a mass of toggle switches controlling fairly good sized relays - to solid state control circuits with backbit push switches (multiple colors to indicate status) - LCD touch screens and a Windows based computer control system that was programmable for each controller's preference on what buttons existed where what they were labeled did etc.
Amazingly, most of the original frames were still used as the newer console "guts" were installed yet each advancement cost more than the last (and the ATC console is used world wide).
With fewer moving parts than the last version, not requiring a new frame/housing (and these consoles sit at least 3 people) you would think that they would get LESS expensive since they are using proven technology that is already in 'mass' production.
Well, maybe less expensive to make, but not less expensive for the consumer. :wink:
