Build your star ships on High tech worlds, save big?

[DFW]

From HG: "There is a 5% price discount per TL for older technology devices
if bought new at the source, to a maximum of –30%. ... For example,
a character buying a new TL8 engine at a TL10 world gets a 10%
discount."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
J-2 drive is a TL 11 device. If purchased on a TL 15 world, the price is Mcr10 -20% = Mcr8

And so on...

 

[captainjack23]

From HG: "There is a 5% price discount per TL for older technology devices
if bought new at the source, to a maximum of –30%. ... For example,
a character buying a new TL8 engine at a TL10 world gets a 10%
discount."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
J-2 drive is a TL 11 device. If purchased on a TL 15 world, the price is Mcr10 -20% = Mcr8

And so on...

Also, several of the the ships that I contributed to the Scouts book used the parallel reduction in size rules for higher tech. On the whole, I think it does a good job of at least adding a tech effect to construction decisions.

 

[DFW]

Also, several of the the ships that I contributed to the Scouts book used the parallel reduction in size rules for higher tech. On the whole, I think it does a good job of at least adding a tech effect to construction decisions.

Yes, I noticed the bridge tonnage reduction due to large computer on one design. Good stuff in Scouts. Thanks for your work.

 

[Captain Jonah]

It makes more sense to offer this than the stock designs.

A higher tech and more efficient construction facility turns out stuff quicker and more cheaply. Think china but with quality

Its an easy way to drop the prices of ships a bit for those who are worried about how expensive ships are.

Drop the 10% for stock ships wwhich saves the arguements over what is or isn't a stock design from one region of space to the next. Visit the local high tech class A and check out the starship catalogs :lol:

Also I apply the same to other items and weapons where the items base tech is lower than the standard. If your standard tech is 12 then those base tech 4 shotguns are a lot cheaper to buy at tech 12. They are no better, just cheap.

 

[Mytholder]

Also I apply the same to other items and weapons where the items base tech is lower than the standard. If your standard tech is 12 then those base tech 4 shotguns are a lot cheaper to buy at tech 12. They are no better, just cheap.

You can go overboard with this. Why's a TL12 planet bothering to produce TL4 shotguns, when they can be making gauss weapons instead?

 

[rust]

Why's a TL12 planet bothering to produce TL4 shotguns, when they can be making gauss weapons instead?

When there are sufficient customers willing to buy them, a TL 15 economy
will certainly not hesitate to mass produce bifaces. :wink:

 

[Captain Jonah]

Just beause its a tech 12 world doesn't mean you hunt wabbits with a gauss rifle.

Shotguns are handy low firepower weapons with lots of uses in places where a gauss or laser would be useless.

 

[DFW]

In the next few days I work out a cheap J-2 freighter (frontier) manufactured on a TL-15 world and post it.

 

[GamerDude]

Something the GM of my first Traveller campaign taught me: "Higher Tech doesn't always mean 'sustainable' tech."

The reasoning:
The more complex something is, the higher the technical know-how and parts needed to keep something working, the harder that is to do as you go to lower tech worlds (or at least more expensive to get the parts shipped in). Batteries go out on your gauze weapon, or the contacts burn out on the battery in the ammo mag, or the magnetic field generating coils finally get corroded (yes, don't tell me that can't happen) etc. You can only carry so many spare parts, batteries only take so many charges, etc. Your TL-12 weapon now broken and you're stuck on a TL-8 world without it and either the parts cost a fortune (not much market for them) or have to be shipped in.

The reverse is also true. What tech level is the musket? What about the flintlock? What tech level are we today... and how many companies or even people have the know how to properly make parts for them, ammunition for them? Vacuum tube radios, how many people work on them and how hard is it to find the older ones for the older radios? This is technology maybe a century old and it's almost gone from our technology landscape limited to stocks of original spare parts.

The parts and materials you most easily find are the ones common to the local tech level. If, as Traveller/3I materials indicate, slug throwers almost identical to our modern day firearms are not just available but till being produced, then purchasing of spare parts, ammo, etc should be quite easy.

Think about this when automatically going for that TL-15 monstrosity that is cool because it's NOT that TL-8 Sub-machine gun.

 

[DFW]

Something the GM of my first Traveller campaign taught me: "Higher Tech doesn't always mean 'sustainable' tech."

True, however this adjustment isn't about that. It is about ease of manufacturing at higher TL's. We have cheaper, faster & easier ways of smelting & forming than 200 years ago. The end product of the iron pipe is the same. What you are referring to is the TL adjustments in HG that makes the component smaller and of a different nature than the lower TL item of the same name. A rug made on a hand loom is more expensive than the same rug made on a computer controlled mechanical loom...

 

[phavoc]

Gamerdude makes a good point (also makes for some interesting adventure hooks).

Zipping around in a TL-15 starship has its advantages. But for PC's I think its going to be more of a disadvantage. Most adventures are probably going take place on lower-tech, more lawless worlds. Which means your TL-15 starship's gonna be grounded when the widget breaks, and you have to wait 8 weeks for an order to GET to a TL-15 order and for that part to get back to you (with the accompanying freight bill as well).

It makes sense if you are a merchant line cruising back and forth between high-tech planets, where you can get the parts you need. But not every planet will have the capability to repair or replace your higher-tech parts.

So if the average TL of say the Spinward Marches is TL-12, then the average TL of ships will probably be close to the same. There will be, of course, exceptions to that. Military ships tend to run at the highest techpossible, as do the larger merchant ships. But tramp freighters and adventurer's are probably not going to have that same deep pocketbook to draw on.

And sure, the theory is that TL-15 stuff is gonna last longer, break down less, etc. But eventually it will at some point, and then you'll be needing spares and repairs that only a higher TL world can offer you.

 

[GamerDude]

Something the GM of my first Traveller campaign taught me: "Higher Tech doesn't always mean 'sustainable' tech."

True, however this adjustment isn't about that. It is about ease of manufacturing at higher TL's. We have cheaper, faster & easier ways of smelting & forming than 200 years ago.

you can make a 9mm pistol (glock) only so small before it can't hold the rounds, the magazine, even fire and the slide action work. There is an actual physical limit to how small something can be.. .it can only be made so cheaply etc.

We have cheaper and faster ways of smelting, but the process itself has requirements that dictate how 'efficient' you can get. Basically our "cheaper easier" ways are, automation. Using machines to move huge vats of molten metal, move the molds filled with that metal etc. How much more you gonna refine that process down? Put anti-grav lifters on something being heated to like 1,000 degrees F?

I'm not saying things won't be easier to make at higher tech levels, but there is a limit to how 'cheaper and easier' can be.

 

[GamerDude]

Gamerdude makes a good point (also makes for some interesting adventure hooks).

Thank you, and yes they've been used for that many times.

And sure, the theory is that TL-15 stuff is gonna last longer, break down less, etc. But eventually it will at some point, and then you'll be needing spares and repairs that only a higher TL world can offer you.

Ahh... old proverb:
If it has openings/holes, dirt & grim will get in
If it has moving parts, they will wear out
If you must open it to clean it, it will wear more
Eventually, it will break from wear and tear plus usage.

:lol:

 

[Ishmael]

in general, high tech goods are easier to use, but harder to repair than lower tech goods.

 

[rust]

In the next few days I work out a cheap J-2 freighter (frontier) manufactured on a TL-15 world and post it.

Since the average technology level of the Third Imperium is about TL 12,
it would seem logical for a TL 15 economy to produce TL 12 starships, too,
in order to work this market, where it can easily outcompete every TL 12
shipyard. In fact, I would suspect that most TL 12 starships in the Imperial
space have been built by shipyards of a higher technology level, simply
because they can build faster and sell cheaper.

 

[DFW]

Sorry guys. You misunderstand they rule or, are thinking of the other rule in HG. The items in question are IDENTICAL to their lower TL ones. NO different for repairs or maintenance. That is why the MAXIMUM price difference is 30%. Gamerdudes's "smaller" comment tipped me off as to what rule you guys are mistaking it for.

 

[GamerDude]

Sorry guys. You misunderstand they rule or, are thinking of the other rule in HG. The items in question are IDENTICAL to their lower TL ones. NO different for repairs or maintenance. That is why the MAXIMUM price difference is 30%. Gamerdudes's "smaller" comment tipped me off as to what rule you guys are mistaking it for.

Glad I could be of assistance.

Actually, I put that in there as a caveat just in case someone was thinking that. Cover yer bases me ol' granpappy use to say. Or he would have if he hadn't lost is larynx to all that smoking he did. :shock:

 

[DFW]

The ship is here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47041

 

[GamerDude]

My point is, you can only bring efficiency so far. Once you go from manual to programmed how much more can you increase efficiency.

I get your point and agree totally, but you can only reduce any task, any process so far before you either just get significantly reduced efficiency/cost returns on your efforts, or you get nothing back.

There is a limit to just about how far you can take anything, unfortunately mankind seems to intentionally ignore that.

 

[phavoc]

Sorry guys. You misunderstand they rule or, are thinking of the other rule in HG. The items in question are IDENTICAL to their lower TL ones. NO different for repairs or maintenance. That is why the MAXIMUM price difference is 30%. Gamerdudes's "smaller" comment tipped me off as to what rule you guys are mistaking it for.

I was thinking about this, and I think I can say it makes no sense.

If you are able to shrink down the size of the mechanism or ship part, then how can you say the parts would be identical? A TL-15 fusion plant might be able to use the same bolts or mounting brackets that a TL-9 fusion plant. But the TL-15 is not the same size. So how can you use the same parts for it?

A prime example would be radar sets. A radar set on a WW2 ship CAN be replaced by a set produced in 2010, but it will be much smaller. Parts won't be interchangeable. Wiring might, and simple things like screws and such. But modern circuit boards can't be used in a vacuum-tube based radar set. Perhaps you can bastardize some things, but that's not the same as being a replacement part.