BF EVO UNIVERSE

[Mr Evil]

This is progression from an alternative thread which I ended up by accident hijacking (sorry to author, was never the intention)

The rules of this is that it is BF EVO for Space and uses the current BF EVO rules with very little to no modification to represent space battles.

First up you need to understand the back bone to this version of space combat V the type we often play, i imagine that the biggest ships have amazing utility, but as you cant make a complete uranium armoured sheet several thousand meters long they are mad from components so have a weakness,, a reason why your battle fields will favour them as support and not a game winner.

Also in space there is little to no friction, so big ship are capable of moving extremely fast as they have the room for more fuel and larger engines. i propose that ship in the future probably wont use thrusters in the sense of rocket fuel burning but probably more something akin to gravitational thrusters...

Weapons, unlike many other star ship combat systems I feel this looks at ships very differently, I don’t see ships brisling with broadside guns but more akin to modern warships rather than warships of the 1800's these star ships are armed with turrets and deployable attack craft.

your fastest ships may well be your largest ships, but the trade of is how uncontrollable they are and how susceptible to a wide array of weapons they have become in their size and construction.


Currently to play use the conversion charts and rule adjustments that follow, with the vehicle stats in the EVO rule book, and rule sin EVO.

Ok

Now the rules.

Trait conversion

All traits stay the same unless noted differently below.

Note: on air units:

All air units in the BF-evo rules is capable of Vtol and landing, units not listed in the rules as Vtol are upgraded to Vtol for 50 points.

Every thing that’s not Vtol (Velocity Tempered Orbiting Leviathan) or land is considered in hyper space and the ship would be unable to engage or have any effect from such a position. hyperspace speeds such as loiter, cruise and burn maybe used but they would not be able to engage or be engaged till they dropped out of hyper and into Vtol mode or landed, Vtol mode is the crafts in space movement mode out of hyperspace, while landed is gravitationally secured so it may disembark transported units. Such craft are huge, and have powerful fields to protect them from close range weapons, while in Vtol mode the craft may not be targeted by close combat attacks and ignores fire zones not targeted at them, by the same effect any other vessels are not effected by fire zones targeted at these large craft due to their shields absorbing so much of the damage. In addition such units are so huge they cause a 20” reaction range rather than a normal 10” so huge are these vessels that when destroyed in Vtol mode they crash (see destroyed air units in BF-Evo rule book) such large units may also attempt flyby attacks on other such craft (refer to flyby charge rules in main BF-Evo rulebook) (any complications with such rules refer to main rule book and treat these as Vtol air units and all other units as ground units.

Players may have hyperspace battles between several craft currently in hyperspace around the system these are treated exactly like air units attacking air units, with the exception that what goes on in hyperspace has no effects on normal space unless a craft is destroyed then it crashes into normal space)


AA = Auto Action you may react as soon as an enemy ship completes an action within 20” range instead of the normal 10"

AA only = as above but all shots are targeted at the unit that caused the reaction , no dice are applied to other units or screens.

Hits/X : as per rules book but in space units with a hits statistic may not spend 2 actions moving, they may move and shoot or shoot and move but they may not move and move, they have other big engines for such actions.

Lumbering: these ships are so huge they need to spend a ready action to turn, and can only move and face in the direction of facing, unless they spend a ready action to rotate to a new facing.

Tracks : now becomes Thrusters this works just like tracks but travel must be in a straight line with no rotations.

Wheels : now becomes overdrive this works exactly like wheels, due to the inertia dampening that makes them susceptible to being knocked of course by hits they do have the advantage of being able to turn and rotate freely at either the beginning or end of its move (not both or during their move) unless lumbering, (if lumbering may not rotate at all during this move)


UNIT STATS

Convert units from Modern combat using the trait conversion notes above in addition for vehicles :

Front becomes the side, and side becomes the front, rear remains the rear. In addition Add +1 to front save and +1 to side target. If there is only 1 side mentioned in stat line then it expands to have a side and front using the base stats with above modifiers rear retains the standard stat line.

For example a shadow would be:

Shadow (Recon Star Tactical )
Size : 2
Move : 6
Close combat : 2xD10
Facing Target save kill
Front 6+ 6+ 8+
Side 7+ 5+ 8+
Rear 6+ 5+ 8+

Hits/2, Overdrive/16”
Transport 5x size 1 ships
GPMG = 30” - 2d6 - AA / Auto / piercing/1 / Prone

Range rule additions…

Space is big, very big

DEATH AND GLOY… this rule is used if a ship is hit from over 36” away

Apply damage as normal, but do not remove target if destroyed, due to vast distances and time it takes for shots to land the enemy get a chance to go down as a hero, the ship gets to be used next turn as normal in all ways but at the end of that players ship activation all the damage effects take hold and model is then subject to being crippled, removed and possibly explode if such effects are caused, this gives the player a chance to unload any transported units or fly to a safe distance to blow up as to not effect friendly units possibly, or maybe just sit there and blast back at the enemy going down in a blaze of glory.


Cover, asteroids space stations and planets become such objects, planets being impassable with asteroid belts are hard cover and gas clouds are soft cover, terrain is as varied as the players so it’s a good idea to decide between your selves on such effects, all types of space phenomenon blocks line of sight, if unsure refer to structure section of the main BF-Evolution rule book.


Command ship,

Each army may have a command for every 2,000 points or part of, any ship can be upgraded to a command ship for 100 points, this ship allows you one bonus action that can be used any where within your (even on a crippled ship) once per turn, a fleet that contains 2 or more command ships still only gets one bonus action per turn, but obviously the others are effectively backup if your command vessel is destroyed. (a command Bonus Action does not cause "Mass Effect")

Infantry, these are now your most mobile units these can be represented by small craft or a bunch of fighter on a single base these are allowed to move freely, face any direction and move with 2 actions, and react and can even dock transport ships, these are your key to a good attack, and due to their small size may not be targeted by weapons that roll a D10 or more.

Close combat : close combat dice represent high calibre rounds or bombing runs made against targets, the Rule that D10 can not target size 1 units still applies (size 1 units are just to evasive).


Mass Effect : Inertia, and momentum, its pretty much imposable to stop on the penny in space due to impacts, gravitation or just previous speed and mass, to keep things simple and to keep the battle field mobile, we have to use a new rule, called "Mass effect" when you activate a ship do your required action you wish then once the action is complete you must apply the mass effect this makes you push your ship forward a distance equal to your ships mass in a straight line, once this has been done and any effects resolved you may then take your second action, again after this action you must apply the mass effect again. in brief : ships must be moved forward in direction of facing their size in " after taking each action.

Additional clarification for Inertia moves:
Intertia move needs the phrase "after any reactions have been made"

Units of size 1 have little mass and can choose not to be effected by Mass Effect if they so wish, if they do apply mass effect then it maybe in any direction of their choosing.

Note: mass effect is not an action so cannot trigger a reaction. In addition Mass effect does not count as movement so wont effect any actions you are taking for example going prone.

Weapon dice and arcs of fire : on size 2 and above all D10 type weapons may only fire into the forward arc, size 1 models may fire 360 with any weapon unless stated by a rule otherwise..

Large Turrets, some ships have large turrets that can house huge weapons, these D10 weapons can fire 360 if the action beforehand was a ready action (the ready action is used to rotate the Turret (the turret is always presumed to reset to forward arc after each shoot action) for a Ship to have a turret it is purely the players choice, but should where possible be modelled on the ship. (note a turret turn action must be followed by a shoot action)

Size 1 units Have no front or back arc due to there extreme mobility. Although do have a facing in certain circumstances, such as going prone.


for your first game try this

3x shadows

Shadow (Recon Star Tactical )
Size : 2
Move : 6
Close combat : 2xD10
Facing Target save kill
Front 6+ 6+ 8+
Side 7+ 5+ 8+
Rear 6+ 5+ 8+

Hits/2, Overdrive/16”
Transport 5x size 1 ships
GPMG = 30” - 2d6 - AA / Auto / piercing 1 / Prone


against

4x NORINCO

Norinco (Fast action ravagers)
Size : 2
Move : 6
Close combat : 2xD10
Facing Target save kill
Front 5+ 5+ 6+
Side 6+ 6+ 6+
Rear 5+ 6+ 6+

Hits/2, Overdrive/16” , Multifire.
Transport 4x size 1 ships
23 Cannon = 30” - 3d6+1 - AA / Auto / piercing 2
GPMG = 30” - 2d6 - AA / Auto / piercing 1 / Prone

If the Norinco uses its overdrive movement mode it gains a 5+ Dodge save.


(Please note im also keeping an upto date version of this on Evo Command)

 

[Mr Evil]

D) ships must be moved forward in direction of facing thier size in " after taking each action.

im siding for D) as its easiest to remeber and use in a game from fidling with modles,

I'd have to say D as the best. If the Capital Ship trait means you move your a distance equal to your size forwards after each action, then you have to deal with 6-8" of compulsory move - it also adds in a certain amount of issues with timing; you have to fire with your first action before movement carries you out of range.....

Equally, it means that you don't actually have to 'move' - simply rotate (and free move) or shoot (and free move) - actually making a move action therefore represents gunning it and trying to push beyond normal 'cruising speed'. I'm not sure that a Wheels or Tracks equivalent is necessarily needed on top of that.

Also, I'd cut the move distances down - if a challenger main battle destroyer is getting 8" 'free' move, then its actual move actions don't want to add up to more than that - 16" move is about the most you want to have a unit moving on a normal sized board.


Although a very long distance one (i.e. more than the usual "two move actions plus an inch or so") makes for a nice in-system hyperspace jump. You can even use the trait name Jump for it - since that does exactly that... As you noted, one ready action for warming up the jump engine (plus a short drift) and then a jump of a foot or so, a free shot, and another drift. It's kind of akin to a 40k turbo-boosting bike; but also has a nice effect (due to the EVO rules) that since you can react to any action when close enough, you may find yourself getting shot at when making the ready action ("Hit them before their jump engines are charged!")



I do like the effect that a bigger ship has more inertia to deal with. The downsides are that:

(a) it also makes a bigger ship faster unless the smaller ship uses move actions to keep up, which gives it even less chance to use its already inferior guns.

(b) a command ship's extra action makes a ship suffer more from inertia by using its ability. Equally, nothing forces you to use both or even any actions with a given unit, which dismisses inertia at the same time in this model.

(c) it kind of stymies the idea about turning close combat into close-ranged weapons, since the size area - effectively the range of those guns - can't be more than about 4-5" radius or the inertial movement becomes ridiculous. I do think that close combat is a good way to deal with fighters - an infantry model equivalent making a charge action is equivalent to a strafing run, and a bomber can use an actual ranged weapon to fire from a longer range - so it doesn't expose itself to a charge action in response from the enemy capital ship, where the flak weapons would squash it flat.




I think (a) and (c) are fairly easily dealt with by making the inertial move a fixed amount as part of the Capital Ship trait - enough to make it impossible to hold position and to allow people to position themselves to take advantage of it, but not enough to turn every ship into a drag racer. I'd suggest 3" (bear in mind that this will be doubled up to 6"). With that added to the straight-line speed of every move action, it's going add up fast.

(b) requires a couple of extra provisions; firstly the Capital Ship trait could use an additional provision that you MUST use both actions each turn (but obviously you can waste them with a ready action with no practical effect if you wish). Although (that said), I suppose it does give you the ability to 'all stop' by essentially shutting the ship down (except for reaction fire).

Secondly on (b) the Command Ship trait needs a provision that this additional action does not require a unit with the Capital Ship trait to move after completing it.[/quote]

thank you, i have made a slight change to the command section, the comand bonus action is noted now as not to cause "mass effect" hope that helps.

a small ship with Wheels could hunt down such large ships, as they may shoot at any point along thier movment, i also thought the mass effect maybe a little to high at first but when i tested it i found the distance worked well as it made the big ships that little hard to controle and required alot more planning to use effectivly, it also gives such ships a small chance to try an escape roving bands of pirates.

the norinco in my example is a little faster than the old challenger stats i listed

Challenger main battle destroyer

size 4
move 5"
close combat 4x10
facing / target / save / kill
front 8+ 2+ 12+
side 9+ 2+ 13+
rear 8+ 3+ 11+

traits

hits 4 / mass effect / multifire / thrusters 14"

.

(modified for new edition)

Max distance that can be covered is 22" by the challenger, while the Norinco can reach 20" with ist special move, if wea hlaved the mass effect it would be 18" V 18" i feel the large ships with its large power suply and large engines and greater mass could probably out run a smaller craft so it sits right for me, as it breaks away from how many other starship games work, ( i like to put a twist on things).

but if it sits slightly un easy take reflection in the fact that most other Tank class ships would only manage a distance of 16"-18" as the challenger is a very very fast exception.

 

[locarno24]

Had a brief try - used a 'bradley gunship' and two infantry 'fighter squadrons' versus an 'abrams main battle destroyer' and two patrol boats (up-armoured HMMWVs with GMPGs).


Unsurprisingly, the tank and its mates won - as with most games, the destroyer got dinked, one fighter squadron got annihalated, both patrol boats were blown to shreds but ultimately nothing was really left after turn one that could hurt a target 8+ unit (never registered that a chaingun can't hurt a tank even if it gets a shot to the backside). Used to World At War with antitank explosives.....

Hulk smash, stomp-stomp, etc, etc.

Was the game interesting?
Yes.

The effects of the capital ship trait, pulling each unit forwards after firing meant that (were this a larger game) I could see side and rear armour shots rapidly appearing in a way that they tend not to in normal games.



Observations:

1) Rules work fairly well. I like the whole fighters with carrier idea but remain unconvinced about flyers. With stuff with the Transport and Jump traits you can already create a jump in, unload attack units, flee type carrier - and without messing about with the names and counts-as of existing traits (something you have to avoid doing if you want to use the EVO development license).

Besides which, the whole aa/shooting into/out of hyperspace thing seems weird.

2) I think you're right that the main force of a fleet - given the way the game plays - should be the equivalents of size 2-3 light vehicles; the HMMWV, warrior and stryker equivalents.

3) Infantry/Fighters. They are going to need a bit of a rework. Speed is actually ok - even with Capital Ships getting even faster they're not too bad on speed. More to the point it promotes the use of carriers to get them across open ground.

Transports for fighters are going to be almost compulsory; since there's no cover infantry is dead meat the moment you turn guns on it.

Range seems a bit odd - I'd cut the range on most weapons (since these are fighters with mini versions of capital ship weapons, the statline of infantry with WWII SMGs - 12", multi D6 - would work nicely, forcing fighters to act as assault units that can rapidly dakka patrol boats to bits but will be unable to hurt capital ships, instead of hunkering at the back taking potshots. Bombers use D10s for close combat - equivalent of small SST warrior bugs charging forwards to chow down.

Varying armament within squads seems fitting for infantry but fighter squadrons generally carry the same armament; hence you'd have a squadron with 9mm railguns to shoot up enemy fighters and patrol boats, and a (small, expensive) wing of heavier bomber types with fat-backside D10 weapons to hammer a big ship at close quarters.

The current layout - where a 'fighter wing' might have a couple of javelins in a squad of 11 doesn't really fit for fighters, especially since they outrange the weapons on a heavier size 2-3 ship.




Additional clarification for Inertia moves:
Intertia move needs the phrase "after any reactions have been made" - otherwise I shoot then can potentially be in a different place before you get to react (which slightly defeats the point of the reactions rule).





Things in the rules not needed:

D10 exception for size 1 targets - not needed: if the target has a lethal zone it should definitely be able to smash swarms. If not it can only kill a single fighter in a swarm of a dozen - big deal.

Close combat D10 exception - see above.

"Mass effect" (sorry, but I really don't like that name... the word is Inertia) not working on fighters - not needed: If Capital Ship or Inertia or whatever is a trait then a ship has it or not in its statline - no need for a complex rule at rulebook level - hence no need to consider fighters since they don't have the trait. It also leaves space in the rules mechanics for some super-manouvrable capital ship (i.e. defiant/white star types) that might be size 3 yet not have the Inertia trait (and, I suppose, some god-awful unmanouvreable fighters that do...)

Weapon dice and fire arcs - not needed. Simply add FaF, FaL or FaR to a weapon as appropriate. Is suggest that even if you're not looking for 1800's style broadside action, it will be significantly more common for weapons to have a restricted arc as no small-ish weapon turret can cover 360' on a huge, kilometre long ship. Essentially, most vehicles with a secondary 2-3d6 weapon would now have one each in each restricted arc.
If something has no arc restriction, it has no arc restriction. There's no need to add 'turret turn' actions in - you'll note an EVO MBT doesn't have to do this.

Higher target score on side - not needed: Yes, I know you feel the speed will affect it (and it will) - however, there will be a lot more flanking shots and rear shots thanks to Inertia and it'd be nice for there to be a payoff for achieving this...






Generic units:

Fighter
Size : 1
Move : 5
Close combat : D6
Target: 4+
Save: 5+/6+
Kill: 6+

Weapons: 3 x 6mm Automatic Railguns
12" - D6 - Auto

This is a generic light fighter - dead meat against any serious heavy opposition, but able to put out enough dice to suppress and/or dismember any enemy attack units. They'll need a transport to get across the board without being smashed to fragments by heavier ships, though. Formations of 10 or so will provide a daunting force for bombers to get through without fighters of their own.

Bomber
Size : 1
Move : 4
Close combat : D10
Target: 5+
Save: 5+/6+
Kill: 6+
Traits: Piercing/1

Weapons: 6mm Automatic Railgun
12" - D6 - Auto

A bit slower, a bit tougher, a lot less well armed for fighter killing, but packing the ability to hammer anything short of a big capital ship if a swarm jumps it. Note that with only size 1 they do have to get within 1", which will significantly limit the number of bombers that can attack at once - make them lots of small formations of 3-4 or so (so that they make a charge action, roll their attack dice, then are automatically pushed back out of the defending ship's lethal zone - falling back after their attack run - which clears the immediate space for wave 2 to charge, and so on)


Patrol Boat
Size : 2
Move : 6
Close combat : 5xD6+1
Target: 5+
Save: 4+
Kill: 7+

Traits:
Inertia, Agile, Jump/16, Multifire/All, Hits/2

Weapons:
13mm Automatic Railgun (FaF)
36" - 2xD6+1 - Auto, Piercing/1
8mm Automatic Railgun
30" - 2xD6 - Auto

Transport: May carry up to 5 size 1 models.

A nice, cheap escort that will make mincemeat out of clouds of attack craft either by shooting or charging but (a) needs a couple of Ready actions to turn round (since Agile lets it turn 90' rather than 45') and (b) is unable to do more than irritate bigger ships. A couple of bombers can still blow it to pieces, as well, so it's going to struggle if overwhelmed. A small fighter wing of its own can help - Jump up the board and them disgorge a wing of bombers within charge distance of the enemy.....

Alternate option for main armament (replacing 13mm Railgun):
Submunitions Missile Rack (FaF)
36" - 2xD6 - Lethal Zone/2

Better for crowd control, worse for dealing with similar opponents.

Gunship
Size : 3
Move : 5
Close combat : 3xD10
Facing Target save kill
Front 8+ 3+ 9+
Side 7+ 4+ 8+
Rear 7+ 5+ 8+

Traits:
Inertia, Jump/16, Multifire/All, Hits/3, Lumbering

Weapons:
Medium Laser
40" - D10+2 - Beam, Piercing/3, Slow (FaF)
25mm Heavy Automatic Railgun (FaF)
40" - 3xD6+1 - Auto, Piercing/2
2 x 8mm Automatic Railgun (FaL)
2 x 8mm Automatic Railgun (FaR)
8mm Automatic Railgun (FaA)
30" - 2xD6 - Auto

The first 'proper combat ship', this thing is very tough from the front, needing big guns to even dent it. From the side or rear, it's actually quite fragile, though, especially since its aft weapons suck and its side weapons aren't even as good as the patrol boat's forward guns. Since it's not Agile, it will need to take a depressing 4 actions (2 turns doing nothing but manouvring) to come fully about if the enemy gets behind it...

The 25mm mount will make mincemeat of lighter ships as well as fighters at good range, and the Medium Laser lets it cut big chunks out of heavy opponents. However, since it can only fire its medium laser once per turn, unless an enemy fighter formation obligingly forms a conga line in front of it, it can only kill one fighter with the laser (although said fighter is likely to be very, very dead), and it's still only got 4 attack dice to throw, it's actually no more capable at killing swarms even though the guns are better than the 8mm mounts on the side.

It's also, more importantly, Lumbering - which means no free responses to any bombers making strafing runs. It's also armed with close ranged light lasers, not snub railguns, for close combat, which again means it's great at stomping on patrol boats and equivalents but rather less scary to a swarm of several dozen fighters.

Dreadnought

Size : 5
Move : 3
Close combat : 3xD10+D6
Facing Target save kill
Front 8+ 2+ 12+
Side 8+ 2+ 11+
Rear 8+ 3+ 10+

Traits:
Inertia, Jump/16, Multifire/All, Hits/10, Lumbering, Retaliate

Weapons:
405mm Superheavy Railgun
72" - D10+5 - Lethal Zone/2, Multihit, Piercing/4, Slow
Medium Laser (FaF)
Medium Laser (FaL)
Medium Laser (FaR)
40" - D10+2 - Beam, Piercing/3, Slow
2 x 25mm Heavy Automatic Railgun (FaF)
40" - 3xD6+1 - Auto, Piercing/2
2 x 8mm Automatic Railgun (FaL)
2 x 8mm Automatic Railgun (FaR)
8mm Automatic Railgun (FaA)
2 x 8mm Automatic Railgun
30" - 2xD6 - Auto

Generic superheavy beastie with the 'big stick' that can pulverize almost anything smaller in a single blow and enough secondary weapons to finish the job on anything bigger. Also includes the option of the reactor going up. Just because......

 

[Mr Evil]

Wow, i realy like what you have done and first read through makes alot of sence., im hoping to have a tinker and a play tonight and il add some of your sugestions in.

in the small document i have done its hard to convey everything as im sure your understand, the idea is to get the rules tested with current statlines available, and then once a feel for it has formed better tinker with units so they resemble starships more rather than converted tanks.

i have a funny feeling though that if space battle was ever to come to pass, large turrets with a main gun would be more popular than say 3 of the same gun all facing different direction, just for a military budget stanpoint, you could build a M1A1 with 4 main guns, but we dont, but again i agree with your points.

on fighters and special weapons, i saw the special weapons as striker craft within units of fighters for protection, but as you pointed out in evop some of such weapons are rather powerful compared to vehicle mounted weapons, so this needs to be adressed, as you have pointed out.

What needs to be done now is 1 tank, 1 apc 2 units of fighters and 1-2 Fav types from each force need to be converted over with relevent point values.

i will use locarno24's sugestion when doing this.

again many thanks for giving it a try and such a great review, that has and will be of great use.

as for your game with bradley taking on the tank.. a close encounter bombing run may have been a fun tactic

 

[Mr Evil]

please note you can not shoot into or out of hyperspace only within hyperspace.

 

[locarno24]

i have a funny feeling though that if space battle was ever to come to pass, large turrets with a main gun would be more popular than say 3 of the same gun all facing different direction, just for a military budget stanpoint, you could build a M1A1 with 4 main guns, but we dont, but again i agree with your points.

Depends. The thing to bear in mind is the size of the MBT relative to its main armament; a 120mm smoothbore along with a turret mount and associated gubbins is a significant proportion of the size of the tank - hence it physically can only mount one, hence it ends up in a big turret.

By comparison, a naval warship doesn't have a single gun armament; even something like WWII battleship main ordnance - a 16" gun - is not really that big in the grand scheme of things compared to the ship it's mounted on; hence you tend to get multiple mounts in seperate turrets, and - by the nature of the geometry of the hull (something which is much more pronounced on a starship where you're trying to cover a 360'x360' globe not a 2d circle) those arcs will not overlap.

Hence why - on a modern naval ship - you tend to have one big....ish....(alright, 5" isn't actually that big but it still tops tank guns) gun and a lot of smaller secondaries split around the hull. Which is what I was going for on the big ship; the main gun can fire anywhichway, then the secondaries are the laser and the autofire weapons - so the laser can fire anywhere but back (but there's not a defined arc for that) and the number and exact class of light batteries will vary depending on facing.

The MBT is built with 1 main gun because we can build a 120mm gun that won't rip itself to pieces (well, actually it will, but it'll take a few hundred rounds) - scale up to a kilometre long starship and a gun that's 10-20% the size of the ship becomes far less believeable - at which point, at least to me, the rule of cool says make it a fixed spinal mount and have a ridiculously massive weapon. It's just a personal thing, but I can believe a V3 sized artillery piece much better if you don't want it to be on a traversing mount.

as for your game with bradley taking on the tank.. a close encounter bombing run may have been a fun tactic

Charge in and use the close-quarter weapons works well in theory but not so well when the target has such a damn huge main gun....
The problem is that by the time the bradly had lined itself up with the abrams, the latter got a clean multihit kill result which would have thoroughly inconvenienced even another main battleship, let alone a gunship with delusions of adequacy.

i saw the special weapons as striker craft within units of fighters for protection

Yes, I'd thought of that as a rationalization, but it still seemed a bit dodgy in practical terms; If it's a bomber flight with a fighter escort, I want to be able to actually go and intercept someone with the fighters without dragging the bomber with me (hence two seperate units - big fighter unit and small bomber unit - the former can still protect the latter from weapons fire by correct positioning). The special weapons, as noted, seem just a bit too good, but if you tone them down you start wondering why you bother.....

As noted, if close combat=bombing/strafing run, it just seems the best way to handle attack craft.

 

[Mr Evil]

yup again i agree

with a 3d universe for the most part i think ships would have weapons positioned on small turrets in such a way to gane max arcs of fire, i think this way of thinking for me is also a result of playing eve online.. i just imagin it with larger weapon sytems. a combination often of 2 turrets with the same weapon allows a ship to cover all 360 degrees of the ship, obvously some weapon sytems in our sytem could be fixed mounted.

what i need to do is get some ship modles made to represent the look i have in mind maybe.

 

[locarno24]

with a 3d universe for the most part i think ships would have weapons positioned on small turrets in such a way to gane max arcs of fire, i think this way of thinking for me is also a result of playing eve online.. i just imagin it with larger weapon sytems. a combination often of 2 turrets with the same weapon allows a ship to cover all 360 degrees of the ship, obvously some weapon sytems in our sytem could be fixed mounted.

It's more a case of using the FaF, etc, to cover exceptions.

If a ship has - as you were describing - enough big 405mm guns in various turrets that there's two in every direction but never more than two (twin turret fore and aft, for the sake of example), then a weapons statline which says "2 x 405mm Railgun" models it exactly fine.

If the arcs of the two turrets overlap - 270' each - then you end up with a bit of a confused mess statline-wise as you get more firepower to the flanks (hence the whole 'cross the T' thing). Either you can write it as:

"2 x 405mm Railgun (FaF), 4 x 405mm Railgun (FaL), 4 x 405mm Railgun (FaR), 2 x 405mm Railgun (FaA)"

or you can simplify matters by putting it as

"2 x 405mm Railgun, 2 x 405mm Railgun (FaL), 2 x 405mm Railgun (FaR)"

which looks and reads more cleanly and has exactly the same effect since you won't fire multiple arcs in a single shoot action. Of course it does become more important which you choose if the weapons have Slow. (In which case the latter is still better in this case - you shouldn't be able to put out 8 railgun slugs from 4 slow-firing weapons. Technically you shouldn't be able to put out 6, but it's still better than nothing!)

Equally, if a ship is dotted with a shedload of small guns (as is the case for modern naval ships - look along the hull and superstructure and you'll see a dozen or so minor weapons ranging from 5.56mm LMGs to 30mm CIWS), write the minimum amount fireable at any target as a weapon stat with no arc listed, then add in as an arc-restricted amount the 'extras' that occur either due to overlapping arcs (broadside if forward/aft turrets, forwards if port/starboard turrets) or fixed limited-arc weaponry to bulk up the firepower in a specific arc (generally forwards but possibly broadside if you're feeling classical....)

One suggestion I might make - since whilst messing with existing Evo rules and traits is Verboten but adding additional ones isn't so much of an issue - create an extra set of weapon arcs;

FaF is fixed arc forwards - able to fire through that facing only (a 90' arc of fire).

TaF, by comparison, is turreted arc forwards; this is a 270' arc in that if can fire through the named facing (forwards) or either facing adjacent to the named facing (left and right)

TaL, TaR and TaA are pretty self-explanatory.


As a result, the ship above is now armed with:

"2 x 405mm Railgun (TaF), 2 x 405mm Railgun (TaA)" - this can now put a maximum of 4 railgun slugs out - all in a single action if you're to the flank, but not to both sides simultaneously.


That then leave the flexibility to have whatever 'style' of starship you like; if you want one that resembles an 1820s ship of the line, tag your main guns as FaL and FaR in equal amounts. For a 1910s dreadnought, TaF and TaA, for a humungous single weapon system, no listed arc, and for a dogfighty starship, FaF. (Note that in the latter case if you give it the Inertia trait you will need to put Agile on it as well or be prepared to spend ages getting the guns lined up on something.....)

EVO's big selling point as a rules set has always been its adaptability; making a space combat adaption that is just as adaptible to the different types of 'feel' of space combat seen in EVE, star trek, star wars, the culture, babylon 5, bucky o'hare, etc, etc gives it more useability at its ground level.


Oh - have been reading the Toby Frost Space Captain Smith series. Very, very funny, but also has one of the best lines I've seen for space combat in a while:

"Commence orbital diplomacy...."

 

[Mr Evil]

One suggestion I might make - since whilst messing with existing Evo rules and traits is Verboten but adding additional ones isn't so much of an issue - create an extra set of weapon arcs;

FaF is fixed arc forwards - able to fire through that facing only (a 90' arc of fire).

TaF, by comparison, is turreted arc forwards; this is a 270' arc in that if can fire through the named facing (forwards) or either facing adjacent to the named facing (left and right)

TaL, TaR and TaA are pretty self-explanatory.


.."

the more i look at this the more i like it.

i think maybe the next idea is to work out a list of weapons modification, im quite happy with every sugested so far for the most part. if i get chance tonight after work and family il try do some updates.

weapons that need organising are realy the fighter craft weapons and ranges i guese, the specialist weapons in a unit i still like if the ballance can be got right, as for squadrons of bombers, maybe allow a unit of fihters to loose all thier main arnaments and be fitted for bombing (close combat D10) for free but allow then to keep the special weapon fighters for defence purposes (M249's) a simple conversion guid will serfice for now but for simplicity it would be a seperate entry later on.

 

[locarno24]

still like if the ballance can be got right, as for squadrons of bombers, maybe allow a unit of fihters to loose all thier main arnaments and be fitted for bombing (close combat D10) for free but allow then to keep the special weapon fighters for defence purposes (M249's) a simple conversion guid will serfice for now but for simplicity it would be a seperate entry later on.

Not necessarily impossible.

As done above in the 'generic test units' - you could simply have 'antiship bombs' as a close combat upgrade (rather like shock sticks in SST EVO) for your fighters - so the ones above would replace two 6mm automatic railguns with bombs.

Incidentally, that offers another interesting thought - point defences; if big close combat attacks are bombs, then a ship with impressive point defences can be given the Parry trait....

Longer ranged support weaponry is also doable - I suppose trading attack dice and/or the Slow trait (since you shouldn't exactly be reacting with long-ranged slow-to-lock-on missiles) for range and a damage bonus.

It's just a question of scale - however good a fighter's support weapon option gets, it should still never outclass a capital ship's armament. Just a question of scale, power reserves, EW ability, etc, etc.

Oh.....hmm....EW ability.
Ever read the SST Evo rules? Fire King trait for the mobile infantry; a variation on that ability on a small ship with 'Independant' and you have an equivalent of an ACTA scout doing the whole 'redirect fire' thing.

 

[Mr Evil]

i like

this is still under work, but currently busy trying to make some crimbo £ so havnt had time to do much work on this last week or so but one change being tried is using cm instead of inch's... ship size will also requir a base of card under the ship to represent its signature, a size 2 ship would have a 1cm by 2 cm (1x2=2) for example, this would be used for close combat a size 6 could be 1x6 or 2x3 for example,, agian things being toyed with.... like most ideas it may get dropped.

 

[locarno24]

I'll have a try at dumping my thoughts on this into a nice neat .pdf with some counters. Shouldn't take too long.

The main problem is a need to play a fair number of games to work out the kinks. This may take some doing as I've no EVO counterparts up here, plus we've now recently got Rogue Trader - so a brand new set of combat rules to get used to.

I suggest that a single 'generic' fleet is probably the way to start. Will see about tagging one on the back.

Might see if I can abuse Vassal into something useful. It doesn't have to look pretty, after all.....

 

[Mr Evil]

you good sir are a star...

im trying to get some time put into this myself, but work comitments are being a spanner in the works .. wish i was a gaming hippy in a caravan with no bills..