BF:Evo MC - AoE weapons in units
- Thread starter Stormrider
- Start date
Stormrider
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:Ah, my good and dear friend, that stuff is out of date.
Trust me when I say a British section should have two LAWs included in its cost, but no reloads for them. It's accurate, believe me.
Oh I do trust. As I say, I'm not a military buff. I'm just glad that from both a realistic point of view and a gaming point of view that I'm not the only one that has issues with only gaining a 1-shot AT weapon by losing a Minimi Para and having nothing else to do all game.
Just because they might be of interest I also found these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(military_unit)#British_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam#British_Army
They do confirm the L85A2/L85A2+L17A2 UGL/Minimi Para/L86 LSW fireteam setup and also state "As well as this, most infantrymen are equipped with a LAW, smoke and HE grenades."
So, anyone for grenade rules?
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Range 10", damage 1D6, lethal zone 2" slow. Seems fair, for an off-the-cuff, pulled-out-of-my-arse statline... :lol:
Stormrider
Mongoose
Wise man says
"When man pulls grenade from arse, wonder what he was eating night before"
"When man pulls grenade from arse, wonder what he was eating night before"
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I eat danger and shit victory. Obviously.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
SMGs have a 12" range in Waw, so that might be a bit much. Plus, when at half your rifle's range, you'll just be lobbing grenades.Lord David the Denied said:
My own thought for grenades are these:
Code:
Range 1", Damage: D6, Traits: LZ/2", Slow, Does not require LoS, firing squad may be hit if within LZ.Stormrider
Mongoose
Rabidchild said:
Range 1" lethal zone 2"
Wouldn't that make it impossible to throw a grenade without blowing yourself up?
Stormrider
Mongoose
Yes, it's also possible to ricochet bullets a few times and put a bullet between the eyes of the enemy without ever being seen or seeing them, but we don't cater for such pedanticism in the rules as they are designed to be fast moving and simple/easy to play.
I would suggest something more along the lines of:
Range: 5" - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ 1", Slow
That means that you can throw them a reasonable distance, they do average damage, you only get 1 per man per turn and the LZ isn't so big so it will only really hurt troops clustered together. Oh, and they're not totally fracking useless because you won't automatically kill yourself with them.
You could possibly add "does not require LoS, cannot be thrown over terrain Size 3 (maybe 4) or greater (no throwing them over buildings, but no reason why you can't toss them ontop of a building...)". Just a thought.
I would suggest something more along the lines of:
Range: 5" - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ 1", Slow
That means that you can throw them a reasonable distance, they do average damage, you only get 1 per man per turn and the LZ isn't so big so it will only really hurt troops clustered together. Oh, and they're not totally fracking useless because you won't automatically kill yourself with them.
You could possibly add "does not require LoS, cannot be thrown over terrain Size 3 (maybe 4) or greater (no throwing them over buildings, but no reason why you can't toss them ontop of a building...)". Just a thought.
Stormrider
Mongoose
All I can say is that when a 20mm model throws a grenade 2", he's either throwing like a girl, a young girl, a girl that has yet to learn to walk, with a broken wrist... or it hit something an bounced back at him, in which case he deserves to be blown up...
Rick, supporter of the limp-wristed
Rick, supporter of the limp-wristed
Rabidchild
Mongoose
The reason for such a short range was the LZ. Of course this would violate the rule of centering the LZ on a model, but I'm okay with that. Place the LZ within 1" (or 2", really), and then allocate the grenade dice to models within 3" (or is it 6" for LZ weapons like it is for Auto weapons? I've been through too many versions of this game. ) As with all weapons in the game, the range which models can be hit is 3" or 6" more than the range of the weapon.
So yes, it's in the 2-5" range that you guys were talking about, just translated into rules-speak.
) As with all weapons in the game, the range which models can be hit is 3" or 6" more than the range of the weapon. So yes, it's in the 2-5" range that you guys were talking about, just translated into rules-speak.
Stormrider
Mongoose
Rabid - That makes much more sense to me now, I keep getting fuddled over this fire zone thing lol. It's a great idea, just confuses the hell out of me being so used to other game systems.
Just to clarify, I don't have the rulebook to hand, you can't hit your own men in the firezone. I know you can't hit the unit which created it, but what about your own other units or vehicles? Also, can you hit you your own men (in the creating unit or not) in the same Lethal Zone?
As for the 3"/6" part, well, me and Rick (despite the arguments you hear) are regular opponents and have taken it as the firezone for all weapons are the size of the firezone of the largest weapon being fired's zone. This could be abused where 1 guy fires his rifle with auto to make the grenades fire zone 6"... Are we playing that right? As far as I know, lethal zones do not extend the fire zone beyond 3" unless the weapon is also 'auto' but can of course overlap outside the firezone using the lethal zone. Phew... zones...
Just to clarify, I don't have the rulebook to hand, you can't hit your own men in the firezone. I know you can't hit the unit which created it, but what about your own other units or vehicles? Also, can you hit you your own men (in the creating unit or not) in the same Lethal Zone?
As for the 3"/6" part, well, me and Rick (despite the arguments you hear) are regular opponents and have taken it as the firezone for all weapons are the size of the firezone of the largest weapon being fired's zone. This could be abused where 1 guy fires his rifle with auto to make the grenades fire zone 6"... Are we playing that right? As far as I know, lethal zones do not extend the fire zone beyond 3" unless the weapon is also 'auto' but can of course overlap outside the firezone using the lethal zone. Phew... zones...
Yeah, I gotta go with the bigger numbers on this one. Since yall mean grenades on par with a M67; even with Shootin' Zones of 3" (6" with Auto trait)... (and realizing this is a game and ranges are all abstracted)... I'd at least make the center point 10 inches (approx. 30 meters at the scales we're talking about after adding in the Shootin' Zone) so that they can be at least useful as Shoot (Grenade) Reactions (if desired) and there's enough wiggle room in the max distance to abstract and account for vertical terrain (i.e. the extra 10-20 meters of throwing range is fudged).
Rabidchild
Mongoose
I don't have my rulebook in front of me either, but from memory: Yes you can hit other friendly units if they are in the FZ, finally a game with friendly-fire! I think the wording of the rules says you cannot allocate dice from the FZ to the squad that created it, but doesn't mention LZ. I'd say that you could hit yourself with a stray LZ.Stormrider said:
In a word, no.Stormrider said:
The weapons with the 3" zone can only allocate their dice within that zone, so roll different color dice (or whatever system works for you). Just make sure you're allocating your dice and it works out fine.Stormrider
Mongoose
Now that we've reached a tentative agreement on how grenades would work Rick has pointed out no-one has covered WHY we want grenades in the game. The arguments against are that they might not be used in the conventional holywood way in real combat and that with UGLs that the functionality is already there also with a far greater range.
Well...
1 - First and foremost, they should be included because they exist and are carried by these troops.
2 - Not everyone carries a UGL, but they all carry grenades (for the most part).
3 - Because I like the ability to choose what to do tactically with what is at hand. They might never get used, if they're too powerful in playtesting, they will get nerfed. They shouldn't be a super weapon, but an option.
4 - Why not, what is there to oppose the idea?
Well...
1 - First and foremost, they should be included because they exist and are carried by these troops.
2 - Not everyone carries a UGL, but they all carry grenades (for the most part).
3 - Because I like the ability to choose what to do tactically with what is at hand. They might never get used, if they're too powerful in playtesting, they will get nerfed. They shouldn't be a super weapon, but an option.
4 - Why not, what is there to oppose the idea?
Rabidchild
Mongoose
5 - To add new strategies to the game. This is always #1 in my mind. If it doesn't bring anything new, then why bother?
Grenades as I've sketched them above, are mainly useful in close terrain, during an advance on an enemy position, when the enemy are bunched. Imagine: An enemy unit occupies a building and is denying a great deal of movement with this commanding position. Several of your squads edge forward behind cover, ready to launch an Assault. Does the enemy react to the small fireteam that's closest, or to the larger squad moving up second? If the smaller fireteam can get in to a good position to use grenades, well that brings something new to the table doesn't it. It creates options.
Then we can have other additions like: flash-bangs, smoke, door-breachers, teargas and the like. Without adding much more than a weapon stat-line, think of all the possibilities for maneuver and counter maneuver.
Sorry for the dissertation, I got excited.
Grenades as I've sketched them above, are mainly useful in close terrain, during an advance on an enemy position, when the enemy are bunched. Imagine: An enemy unit occupies a building and is denying a great deal of movement with this commanding position. Several of your squads edge forward behind cover, ready to launch an Assault. Does the enemy react to the small fireteam that's closest, or to the larger squad moving up second? If the smaller fireteam can get in to a good position to use grenades, well that brings something new to the table doesn't it. It creates options.
Then we can have other additions like: flash-bangs, smoke, door-breachers, teargas and the like. Without adding much more than a weapon stat-line, think of all the possibilities for maneuver and counter maneuver.
Sorry for the dissertation, I got excited.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Breaching charges would be placed weapons like the MEA's IEDs, but they could certainly work. Be nice to do some room clearance in BF:Evo...
Stormrider
Mongoose
How about some stats for this?
I'm thinking:
Chuck Norris' Toothpick - 5000 pts
On the roll of a 6 it kills every enemy model on the table, in your opponents model box and any projects currently being coverted or painted by your opponent. On a roll 1-5 the model carrying the 'Toothpick' is turned inside out by it as they are deemed upworthy to carry such an artifact. The weapon then leaps into a nearby river to lay dormant for centuries waiting for some strange little creature to find it, run off into the misty mountains and be conned by a hairy footed midget...
Maybe I took that a little far
I'm thinking:
Chuck Norris' Toothpick - 5000 pts
On the roll of a 6 it kills every enemy model on the table, in your opponents model box and any projects currently being coverted or painted by your opponent. On a roll 1-5 the model carrying the 'Toothpick' is turned inside out by it as they are deemed upworthy to carry such an artifact. The weapon then leaps into a nearby river to lay dormant for centuries waiting for some strange little creature to find it, run off into the misty mountains and be conned by a hairy footed midget...
Maybe I took that a little far
