Beyond the 20th level

[tneva82]

I'm sure Conan was 20th lvl during the events of Hour of the Dragon. Leading free companies and pirates is definitely lower levels but the events of Phoenix on the Sword and the Scarlet Citadel, 20th level King Conan looks right to me.

Which doesn't mean every king however is lvl 20.

 

[flatscan]

Which doesn't mean every king however is lvl 20.

True. Your take on the Hyborian Age is what you and your groups should be. But running a game of Conan I'm of the mind of saving the kingships for 20th as well. :twisted:

 

[tneva82]

Which doesn't mean every king however is lvl 20.

True. Your take on the Hyborian Age is what you and your groups should be. But running a game of Conan I'm of the mind of saving the kingships for 20th as well. :twisted:

Kingship is about position, not your individual prowess.

Limiting it to lvl 20 seems...Strange. And certainly unrealistic(albeit realism seems odd word for fantasy game but still).

 

[zozotroll]

It depends on how you get your kingship. If you inherit as a teenager, you may not have many levels at all. And if the kingdom has ben stable for a long time, with generals rather than the king leading the armys, you may normaly have a lower level king.

Owen

 

[The King]

You're all small players guys (and ladies). :wink:
How could then your PCs encounter the mythic Thulsa Doom from the Thurian Age?
He was IMO a far better villain for Kull than Thoth Amon was for Conan and Lin Carter made him die a silly death. He was the first great intelligent undead of history (he even is a the origin of the (A)D&D lich), even better than Dracula because he could live among the society.

Frankly, they is almost no magic in Kull's stories but the forces that are sometimes involved and hinted at are huge compared to those of the Hyborian age (the altar and the scorpions, the shadow kingdom, the mirrors of Tuzun Thune and the greatest power of all the skull of silence).

 

[The King]

Not sure about the "show Ymir who is the real master by nailing his daughter" comment King. Kinda weird.

If Conan had caught Atali, Ymir would have probably appeared to save his daughter(s honour.

Contrary to what David St-Michel declares, Conan only caught her veil. I don't think he felt satisfied with it at the end of the story

 

[flatscan]

Kingship is about position, not your individual prowess.

Limiting it to lvl 20 seems...Strange. And certainly unrealistic(albeit realism seems odd word for fantasy game but still).

It is about your individual prowess, reputation, and charisma if you are planning on usurping a throne and taking a crown with your own hands. Since none of the PCs in my game took the Noble class then that's exactly how they'll have to do it. It's how Conan did it for Crom's sake! :shock:

 

[tneva82]

It is about your individual prowess, reputation, and charisma if you are planning on usurping a throne and taking a crown with your own hands. Since none of the PCs in my game took the Noble class then that's exactly how they'll have to do it. It's how Conan did it for Crom's sake! :shock:

Yes but that's only one way to gain it. And who says character can't be charismatic enough before reaching lvl 20? Is there some sort of mystical law preventing <20 from gathering enough followers to make succesful overtake?

Levels are very artificial to begin with and even more when determining when character can become king. It's more about what you have archieved and your personality than some number in character sheet.

 

[flatscan]

Yes but that's only one way to gain it. And who says character can't be charismatic enough before reaching lvl 20? Is there some sort of mystical law preventing <20 from gathering enough followers to make succesful overtake?

Levels are very artificial to begin with and even more when determining when character can become king. It's more about what you have archieved and your personality than some number in character sheet.

As I said previously man, if that's what is best for you and your group go for it. Nobody here has said there's only one way to do things. If you don't use Reputation in your game then yes, a 7th level character can make a bid for king, it could make an interesting story. BUT if you do use Reputation in your game then a 7th level character won't have enough Rep to convince a nation of people to follow him. And even if he/she did have enough Rep they'd have a hell of a time dealing with the plotting sorcerers and scheming nobles in the country that are most likely closer to 20th level especially in a Hyborian nation like Aquilonia (hence the need for strong individual prowess). YMMV and there's no point of arguing this further. Run your game the way that works for you and your group. I'll do the same. But for me the types of stories of defending a PCs kingship entails is more appropriate as epic end-game material.

 

[David St-Michel]

No need for "Super-Conan".

I'd say Conan is already at the "Super-Conan" state.

 

[tneva82]

And even if he/she did have enough Rep they'd have a hell of a time dealing with the plotting sorcerers and scheming nobles in the country that are most likely closer to 20th level especially in a Hyborian nation like Aquilonia

Conan is supposed to be on higher peak of prowess and he's lvl 20. I seriously doubt there are all that many lvl 20's running around.

 

[flatscan]

Conan is supposed to be on higher peak of prowess and he's lvl 20. I seriously doubt there are all that many lvl 20's running around.

You need to read more of the Mongoose supplements then. The Nemedian King Tarascus is a 20th level multi-class of noble and soldier. Xaltotun...what level do you think a 3,000 year old Acheronian sorcerer was, yup, 20th. I don't have the stats for Tsotha-lanti in front of me but I'd put money that he was 20th as well. Thoth-Amon, yup, 20th. They are rare compared to lower levels, but in the 3 REH Conan stories while the Cimmerian is King he runs into quite a few of them. At least as far as Mongoose is concerned the powerful movers and shaker kings and sorcerers statted out are 20th level or in their high teens. My game will follow this pattern, because I like it. Again, YMMV.

 

[zozotroll]

And that is a lot of my problem with a cap. A powerful soc. gets there in 20-30 years, and then learns nothing for the next 2900 years.

I dont know that I want PCs to go over 20th often, or even at all. I just dont like the thats it, you have learned all there is. Possibly I shall look at the Black Company supplement again, as it does expect you to go over 20th. Of course, it wont be a problem for a year or two yet.

 

[David St-Michel]

Well...

I think that Thoth-Amon, Tsotha-Lanti and the like are level 20th because I don't think Mongoose wanted to say "Ok yes they're level 20th, but they're stronger then other level 20's because we say so and they're older."

I mean it's normal, I believe, to cap a power level simply because after level 20... What is there? Godhood? Trying to walk up Mount Crom and throwing him off his iron throne?

Nah. Let's not forget the fact that in the Howard stories I've read, even the most powerful people have their limitations. In the Hour of the Dragon, the sorceror who helps the usurpers (sorry, I forget his name) has his spells countered by Zelata and the leader of the cult of Asura of Tarantia (again, I forgot his name). And I'm pretty sure Zelata and the other dude are NOT level 20.

So yeah, Thoth-Amon is -just- level 20. PErsonally, I would add something along the lines of "Look, he's 3000 years old. He wins every single Knowledge checks he attempts. He just knows it."

 

[Jacek]

In the Hour of the Dragon, the sorceror who helps the usurpers (sorry, I forget his name) has his spells countered by Zelata and the leader of the cult of Asura of Tarantia (again, I forgot his name). And I'm pretty sure Zelata and the other dude are NOT level 20.

That'd be Xaltotun and Hadrathus, I believe.

I mean it's normal, I believe, to cap a power level simply because after level 20... What is there? Godhood? Trying to walk up Mount Crom and throwing him off his iron throne?

Nope, it's just perfection or the ultimacy in some area of activity or status, IMO. To use just the examples given by flatscan: Xaltotun reached this level because of his secrets forgotten in time, Thoth-Amon was bestowed his powers by the Black Ring, and king Tarascus was, well... a king and therefore had the entire nation with all its resources at his command. Each and every one of those characters have their weak points, of course but those cannot be exploited by a regular "John Smith".
Having said that, I think that this level is simply a mark of how important the specific character is to the game world and simply shouldn't be utilized the same as with any other character. I believe that the 20s are more like narrative elements rather than someone PCs could confront directly.


Oh, my. I hope I did make my point clear :wink:

 

[flatscan]

Having said that, I think that this level is simply a mark of how important the specific character is to the game world and simply shouldn't be utilized the same as with any other character. I believe that the 20s are more like narrative elements rather than someone PCs could confront directly.

When the PCs in my game have usurped a kingdom and are contesting against sorcerers and kings from neighboring kingdoms they will be squaring off with 20th level nPeeps. There may be only 2-4 level 20 nPeeps in that area, but of course they will all be conspiring to bring down the PCs. :twisted:

After all, Conan faced off with Tarascus, Xaltotun, Tsotha-Lanti, etc.

 

[Vortigern]

Personally I think the frequent statting of NPCs at lvl 20 has given to a power creep that undermines the intent of the level cap.

 

[Jacek]

Having said that, I think that this level is simply a mark of how important the specific character is to the game world and simply shouldn't be utilized the same as with any other character. I believe that the 20s are more like narrative elements rather than someone PCs could confront directly.

When the PCs in my game have usurped a kingdom and are contesting against sorcerers and kings from neighboring kingdoms they will be squaring off with 20th level nPeeps. There may be only 2-4 level 20 nPeeps in that area, but of course they will all be conspiring to bring down the PCs. :twisted:

After all, Conan faced off with Tarascus, Xaltotun, Tsotha-Lanti, etc.

True, although I suppose those 20s in your game are some nobles or other extremely powerful characters in the scale of the game. You are not going to send out a 20th level assassin to deal with your now-royal PCs, are you? It'd be better do hire the Black Seers of Yimsha instead. But then again, why make your main antagonists level 20 if they need to employ magic of the Black Circle to obtain their goals?

Personally I think the frequent statting of NPCs at lvl 20 has given to a power creep that undermines the intent of the level cap.

Exactly. This high a level should be reserved for the world's key characters, not necessarily taking part in current events.

 

[flatscan]

True, although I suppose those 20s in your game are some nobles or other extremely powerful characters in the scale of the game. You are not going to send out a 20th level assassin to deal with your now-royal PCs, are you? It'd be better do hire the Black Seers of Yimsha instead. But then again, why make your main antagonists level 20 if they need to employ magic of the Black Circle to obtain their goals?

I will send out whatever 20th level nPeep I need to challenge the PCs and make for an exciting game. Whether it's a king, sorcerer, poet, whatever. Obviously, if the PCs are 20th level then there are 20th level Barbarians, Soldiers, Scholars, etc, in the Hyborian Age. I don't plan on making these people trite. Obviously if they're 20th level they've had a long career/history behind them.

Personally I think the frequent statting of NPCs at lvl 20 has given to a power creep that undermines the intent of the level cap.

I've not seen this power creep you speak of. Except for the before mentioned opponents (who I agree should be 20th level) and Yara from the Tower of the Elephant, I've not seen legions of 20th level opponents. Levels are a tool of the RPG. I happen to think for a Conan game they work quite well. YMMV.

 

[Jacek]

Obviously if they're 20th level they've had a long career/history behind them.

Obviously but where are you gonna go from that point? End the campaign, let the PCs stuck in that "experience bubble", carry it on infinitely letting them grow ever stronger along with the entire world? That's the problem to face here. Besides, the 20-level Bard...