Best Case Scenario - Conan & D&D 4e

[Strom]

Stand back ya blood thirsty barbarians!

Tis here is a civil discourse on the merits of jumping on the Aquilonian bandwagon known as Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition!

The reasons not to move Conan to 4e have been discussed and make great sense. Personally, I have found the current (or more specifically Atlantean edition) Conan rules to have just the right amount of kick to create some of the best roleplaying games we have ever played. Great moments from right out of the REH stories. Second Edition appears to not mess that formula up and adds some needed change. Things look good for the line.

However - What happens if Conan 4e is a part of D&D 4e's launch?

First off, Conan is now running with the big dogs. D&D 4e will sell huge, I have no doubt. I haven't played D&D since AD&D, but you could be a non-gamer and know that D&D is the Ipod of RPG's.

Second, Mongoose has an opportunity with Conan and only with Conan to partner up with this huge launch. Mongoose can not change Runequest to 4e or even Lone Wolf (second edition is being written right now and LW doesn't have the marketing cache of Conan). That leaves Conan - a highly successful brand name that would get immediate attention from gamers looking for a gritter, low-magic game with similar rules to 4e.

Third, I don't think it would be that hard to incorporate the majority of the PHB with some modifications to make a Conan/4e hybrid game. Take away some of the obvious issues and you have a fantasy game that just needs some Hyborian dirt - even Matt suggested it wouldn't be hard.

Fourth, the lead time Mongoose would have to sell their game over any other 4e OGL games - there will not be a glut of these - but only a handful. Mongoose could really shoot Conan out of a canon with a synergistic relationship with the massive marketing 4e is bound to have over their extended launch (3 books over x amount of months).

Fifth, any and all supplements created would have a crossover appeal to 4e gamers not neccessiarly playing Conan. This would only benefit Conan gamers as well, with higher sales and hopefully more supps/modules.

Believe me, I'm looking at hundreds & hundreds of dollars already spent on Mongoose's Conan RPG. And just yesterday I was salivating at all the books I'm gonna buy over the next 4 months. But, like Kennedy said in that famous speech:

Ask not what your gaming company can do for you but what can your gaming company do for your favorite game.

If you take away the emotion - is making Conan 4e the best thing for the life of the game?

What other benefits are there for jumping aboard the 4e marketing train?

 

[The King]

I don't think it is much a problem of money invested in previous editions. It has always been the case with every games (Call of Cthulhu excepted, because they never really changed mucu things between the different versions).
The most important question is how to adapt the books and scenarios from the previous editions as well as the different PCs and NPCs.

Once you have it all, you can have as many editions as you wish.

 

[Tathlum]

Let D&D sink in for 2 years. Get a feel for what works and what doesn't, away from all the hype. Then, if in the cold logical light of day, IF, Conan would be better in D&D4 terms, change then. If not, stick to 3rd.

Either way play Conan 2nd ed for the next 2 years. Mongoose should build Traveller this year. I honestly believe a co-release of Conan would be buried.

 

[The King]

I didn't even talk of this: may be as Tathllum suggests, we should wait a little until Wizards release the temporary definitive 4.5 version.

 

[FuryMaster]

Are you aware of what the new OGL rules under the new 4e are Strom? They are far more restrictive than the 3e OGL, absolutely tying any third party products to D&D. In fact if the book you are gonna put out isn't based off of the PLayers Handbook you can't do the book under the new rules....here is a quote from a WoTC official taken from enworld.com

*********************************************************
The new version of the OGL isn’t as open-ended as the current version. Any 4e OGL product must use the 4e PHB as the basis of their game. If they can’t use the core rule books, it won’t be possible to create the game under this particular version of the OGL.

*************************************************************
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e#ogl

Look under point 7...this is the answer given when asked about products like Spycraft and Mutants & Masterminds which diverged wildly from the basic 3rd edition rules.

I can't imagine that you want Conan to be tied to D&D to that degree, the 2 are far to different from each other for that kind of compatability.

Conan 2e just came out, it works fine (we all make our own house rules and tweaks here and there) but a completely new edition would be a bad bussiness call for Mongoose....down the road if a completely new system is desired then RQ is far more suitable for Conan than D&D.

While the PHB will be a big hit for WoTC i'm betting that this whole 4e enterprise will be far less successful than 3e. Frankly I think Matt and team are geniuses to have steered the course they have, investing in their own systems and not tying their success and futures to what another company is doing. With the current exceptions of Conan and B5 I think Mongoose should just stick to RQ and Traveler.

FM

 

[The Greek]

Frankly I think Matt and team are geniuses to have steered the course they have, investing in their own systems and not tying their success and futures to what another company is doing.
FM

Oh crap, just what he needed to inflate his ego... you called Matt a genius :wink:

As far as RPGs go for Mongoose you forgot to mention the ever popular Paranoia...

But, yep, 4e is all going to be tied into the PHB, so I think both Conan and B5 would suffer if they went down that route, in my opinion.

 

[The King]

Question is: can Wizards forbid the use of their former 3rd edition and all associated OGL once they release the 4th?

I mean even if Conan RPG has quite seceded from D20 rules, it still contains a not unimportant amount of D20-related material, such as levels, classes-feats and -skills, etc.

 

[Tathlum]

No, as companies would not be in breach of the License they used to make the product.

 

[The Greek]

No, as companies would not be in breach of the License they used to make the product.

Correct.

And now your starter for ten, fingers on your buzzers please...

 

[Strom]

Are you aware of what the new OGL rules under the new 4e are Strom? They are far more restrictive than the 3e OGL, absolutely tying any third party products to D&D. In fact if the book you are gonna put out isn't based off of the PLayers Handbook you can't do the book under the new rules....here is a quote from a WoTC official taken from enworld.com

*********************************************************
The new version of the OGL isn’t as open-ended as the current version. Any 4e OGL product must use the 4e PHB as the basis of their game. If they can’t use the core rule books, it won’t be possible to create the game under this particular version of the OGL.

*************************************************************
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e#ogl

Look under point 7...this is the answer given when asked about products like Spycraft and Mutants & Masterminds which diverged wildly from the basic 3rd edition rules.

I can't imagine that you want Conan to be tied to D&D to that degree, the 2 are far to different from each other for that kind of compatability.

Conan 2e just came out, it works fine (we all make our own house rules and tweaks here and there) but a completely new edition would be a bad bussiness call for Mongoose....down the road if a completely new system is desired then RQ is far more suitable for Conan than D&D.

While the PHB will be a big hit for WoTC i'm betting that this whole 4e enterprise will be far less successful than 3e. Frankly I think Matt and team are geniuses to have steered the course they have, investing in their own systems and not tying their success and futures to what another company is doing. With the current exceptions of Conan and B5 I think Mongoose should just stick to RQ and Traveler.

FM

Yes, I'm aware of the rules so far - in large part becuase of the postings by Conan RPG fans here on this forum.

I wish you would've read my post. I acknowledge the PHB restriction in my third point. Honestly, this is just a best case scenario - no need to defend what I've already acknowledged about Mongoose and the Conan RPG. I'm sure discussions like this are taking place in the offices of Mongoose and I thought it might be fun to discuss ourselves what impact trying Conan to 4e - early on - would have.

Often thinking outside the box generates high reward - you can't always just go the "safe" route.

 

[Azgulor]

While it's all conjecture at this point, given the fact that we know that OGL games as they are developed under the 3e OGL will not be possible (as in PHB required), I strongly suspect there will be additional limitations imposed about what you can or can't change in a 4e OGL game.

If I'm right, the result would be a watered-down Conan - not quite D&D, not quite Conan and unsatisfying to fans on both sides of the aisle.

I'm all for change, progress, and profit - but change for change's sake is seldom good. I LIKE that Mongoose's destiny isn't tied to what WotC will "let" them do. I LIKE that Conan can continue to be developed and supported (along with Mongoose's other lines) - it's a fantastic game.

Honestly, Conan is ample evidence that the d20 rules can be tweaked/fixed, etc. WITHOUT requiring an edition change.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but for Mongoose, I see a helluva lot more downside than upside to linking Conan to 4e.

 

[The King]

While it's all conjecture at this point, given the fact that we know that OGL games as they are developed under the 3e OGL will not be possible (as in PHB required), I strongly suspect there will be additional limitations imposed about what you can or can't change in a 4e OGL game.

If I'm right, the result would be a watered-down Conan - not quite D&D, not quite Conan and unsatisfying to fans on both sides of the aisle.

I'm all for change, progress, and profit - but change for change's sake is seldom good. I LIKE that Mongoose's destiny isn't tied to what WotC will "let" them do. I LIKE that Conan can continue to be developed and supported (along with Mongoose's other lines) - it's a fantastic game.

Honestly, Conan is ample evidence that the d20 rules can be tweaked/fixed, etc. WITHOUT requiring an edition change.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but for Mongoose, I see a helluva lot more downside than upside to linking Conan to 4e.

In fact, before it went with Runequest rules, Slaine was a true 3.0 edition, that is the PH was required to play even though only 50 pages were used (that is: level gains, most feats and skills and combat rules, but classes were different and there were many new feats).
Note that the Slaine magic system was used to make up the magic rules in Conan RPG.
So Slaine D20 was almost OGL (it was truly silly to have to refer to the PH for minor things).

 

[The King]

Anyway I never liked the D20 (and its OGL) as I find it overcomplicated for the enjoyment it brings.
Thus I am progressively "mutating" (as the Swiss say) to Runequest system.
It is also a better system to see heads rolling and special (Conan-like) abilities and nicely done (with legendary abilities).

 

[FuryMaster]

Taking Conan in the direction of 4e is hardly thinking outside the box, its more like going with the prevailing winds even if those winds are taking you in a direction you don't want to go in.

Mongoose has already been thinking outside the box by investing in their own systems. Tying their future to RQ and Traveler makes Mongoose their own masters in charge of their own destiny. I'm sure they will take advantage of any opportunity that comes along as far as 4e is concerned but changing Conan would be a dumb move pissing off almost all of the fan base....Mongooses future is RQ/Traveler not D&D.

As far as not reading your whole post Strom, you are right, my bad. I just found it so irritating to find a post suggesting a new edition when the newest edition just got into our hands 3 months ago and we're still waiting for core books like the bestiary, Player's Handbook, and Skelos.

FM[/quote]

 

[Strom]

Taking Conan in the direction of 4e is hardly thinking outside the box, its more like going with the prevailing winds even if those winds are taking you in a direction you don't want to go in.

Mongoose has already been thinking outside the box by investing in their own systems. Tying their future to RQ and Traveler makes Mongoose their own masters in charge of their own destiny. I'm sure they will take advantage of any opportunity that comes along as far as 4e is concerned but changing Conan would be a dumb move pissing off almost all of the fan base....Mongooses future is RQ/Traveler not D&D.

As far as not reading your whole post Strom, you are right, my bad. I just found it so irritating to find a post suggesting a new edition when the newest edition just got into our hands 3 months ago and we're still waiting for core books like the bestiary, Player's Handbook, and Skelos.

FM

[/quote]

Seriously? Irritating? - just discussing on a discussion forum.

If Mongoose owned the Conan license I could see your point. As it is, the license is a finite property (3-4 more years I believe) and keeping Conan tied to the old system -3.5 - is the safe move. Mongoose may not always have the Conan license, so RQ or Traveler may not even be an option.

What people may not be grasping - and what is so interesting to me - is the clock is ticking. This is a one time opportunity to be bold and perhaps extremely successful. Older editions - even 2 month old ones - do not go away. People can still play them. Chances to partner with mega products like D&D - or Coca Cola, Microsoft Office or Ipod - are worth considering and have a history of success behind them. Doesn't anyone want to consider - or discuss - the positives of such a partnership?

In the end, it may not be the right move, but is Conan a featured RPG at your local gameshop? Is it garnering the shelf space 20+ supplements deserve?

 

[Giavonn]

In the end, it may not be the right move, but is Conan a featured RPG at your local gameshop? Is it garnering the shelf space 20+ supplements deserve?

It is at mine (Dragon's Lair in Austin). It's on the main d20 wall, and is consistently talked up and promoted by staff, too.

My 2sp:
Under NO circumstances should Conan be thrown to the 4e Wolves.

 

[arderkrag]

Ummm...Yeh.

Conan as a system should steer well clear of 4th edition. While good for D&D and its settings, the Conan d20 system does an excellent job of emulating a gritty sword & sorcery world, which is the goal. I've never had any problems with it or been disappointed in it.

 

[Tathlum]

Seriously? Irritating? - just discussing on a discussion forum.

If Mongoose owned the Conan license I could see your point. As it is, the license is a finite property (3-4 more years I believe) and keeping Conan tied to the old system -3.5 - is the safe move. Mongoose may not always have the Conan license, so RQ or Traveler may not even be an option.

What people may not be grasping - and what is so interesting to me - is the clock is ticking. This is a one time opportunity to be bold and perhaps extremely successful. Older editions - even 2 month old ones - do not go away. People can still play them. Chances to partner with mega products like D&D - or Coca Cola, Microsoft Office or Ipod - are worth considering and have a history of success behind them. Doesn't anyone want to consider - or discuss - the positives of such a partnership?

In the end, it may not be the right move, but is Conan a featured RPG at your local gameshop? Is it garnering the shelf space 20+ supplements deserve?

I see what you are saying, but the money probably won't be there. 3 new core hardback books is an expensive investment, both for players and retailers. D&D is bigger, hence the safer investment so Conan would be buried.

It would also have to be a rush job. D&D4 has been in development/playtesting for a long time. Conan was a success because it took a good system and tweaked it for its needs. We don't know how good or suitable for Conan 4th edition is going to be. Mongoose would not have the time to check if their tweaks help or hinder the game.

And whatever about people playing old editions, it would be a PR disaster. WOTC are being lambasted by a lot of fans for having 4th edition so soon after 3.5. 5 years ago they did a revision or a game they made 8 years ago. In about the same length of time you are suggesting Mongoose go Conan-Atlantean-2nd-3rd. And that 3rd edition would be untested.

Sure these partnerships can work, but they need work to succeed. For this to work Mongoose would have had to have been in on the playtesting and development for 4th edition, and once they understood the game, tested their own changes. Without the proper preparation this golden opportunity would be a commercial and PR disaster.

On the other hand, they can wait and see. Let WOTC do all the testing and take the flak and financial hit if it fails, while still supporting current Conan. If 4th edition rocks, they can digest the rules, test the changes they want to make and release Conan as a 4th edition campaign setting.

Please don’t think that I am dismissing the idea out of hand, I did give it some thought.

 

[Clovenhoof]

About the Conan license: I'm not an expert on those matters, but afaik any copyright expires 70 years after the death of the author, which in the case of REH was last year. That's also the reason why all Conan stories can now be distributed freely over the net. So wouldn't it be common sense that _all_ things Conan are public domain now, and nobody needs a license to peruse this universe?

 

[The King]

About the Conan license: I'm not an expert on those matters, but afaik any copyright expires 70 years after the death of the author, which in the case of REH was last year. That's also the reason why all Conan stories can now be distributed freely over the net. So wouldn't it be common sense that _all_ things Conan are public domain now, and nobody needs a license to peruse this universe?

You're talking about novels and stories but RPG also implies copyrighted rules.
Moreover I think the Conan licence was bought by Conan Properties (at www.conan.com) which actually sells a licence to Mongoose for the right to publish Conan RPG. In fact this company owns the merchandising right for every product with the name Conan on it (excepted for the above mentioned text and stories).

We are now in a very civilized world and if it goes on that way, we'll be soon have to breath copyrighted air(TM).