Belit, she's a crazy wench

I'm on to The Vale of Lost Women. I read the first chapter. Not too much more to go (short, short story).

My God, Howard can write! He is, without a doubt, ten times the writer than any of the pastiche writers are (and, that's coming from someone who likes most of the pastiche writers).

The difference in a great writer and a good writer is that a great writer will find a way (or naturally inject it into his story) to have his story say something about the human condition. There is more being said, or described, than just the plot. A good writer, on the other hand, will involve you in a good story--but, the story is just that. It doesn't really make you think of anything else but the action taking place.

Not all of Howard's writing does this. The Tower of the Elephant, for example, is really just an action tale. There's no greater insight into the human condition hidden among that tale's words.

But, in Vale, there sure it.

As I started it, I was reminded of another great pulp author, Ian Fleming, and his only James Bond novel not told from Bond's perspective: The Spy Who Loved Me. That's a fantastic novel. Bond doesn't even appear in the first third of the book. And, it's written in first person from a female's point of view. It was Fleming experimenting, and it's a great additon to his Bond tales.

The Vale of Lost Women reminds me of this because of Howard's chosen point of view. He chose to go with Livia's POV, not Conan's.

The one thing I find fantastic about the first part of the tale--the part that lifts the story from "good" to "great" and comments on the human condition, is the scene where Livia escapes to Conan's hut to convince him to kill the black chief and rescue her.

She rips her top, exposes her breasts, and lets Conan know that he can have her, a virgin, if he will just do as she asks.

I love what happens next. Conan explains to her that she is offering something that is no longer something she has the power to offer. In that land, Conan can take whatever he wants. He doesn't have to wait for consent.

It's amazing how, even in the circumstances she's in--brother hacked to bits in front of her, his parts thrown to the animals and devoured as she watched, slave of a black king in one of the most barbaric corners of the known world--she can conceive of not having that power over men...a power she's had since she reached puberty. That power of "consent" as she described it in her thoughts, where everything revolved around her.

That really says something--much more than what is happening in the story. It's a comment about the way some women manipulate in order to get what they want. It's about the power we men give them--the hold we allow them to have over us.

Wow.

In a Conan adventure tale.

That, my friends, is why Howard is one of the greats.

Stuff like that is probably why we're still reading him close to a hundred years (well, 70 or 80) after he wrote.
 
PrinceYyrkoon said:
To Supplement Four

Nnnhgghh?

The Tower of the Elephant is just an action story?! :?

I thought it was you who said Howard was only an action writer (while Moorecock layered his tales with symbolism), wasn't it?

What comments on the human condition do you see in The Tower of the Elephant?
 
Great post Supp4.

Supplement Four said:
Not all of Howard's writing does this. The Tower of the Elephant, for example, is really just an action tale. There's no greater insight into the human condition hidden among that tale's words.

Interesting - TOTE isn't much of an action story. Conan only fights one big spider. Other than that it is all atmospheric, character building and insight. It's on a deep level - one of Howard's best stories in my opinion - original and inspired. Conan listening for hours to the priests, attempting to conquer the Tower on a whim, ignoring his mission to save the monster, and the monster as the good guy. No cliches. Even nowadays. Howard really was one of the best.
 
Strom said:
Great post Supp4.

Thanks, man.

Interesting - TOTE isn't much of an action story.

Adventure tale, then. I tend to use the two terms interchangeably, and I shouldn't.

Howard really was one of the best.

I agree. I love the story. I just don't see anything in it like what I see in Vale. Had Howard elaborated more, or made a full scene, maybe the part about philosophy and gods would turn into a comment about a "bigger picture". But, as I read TotE, I really just see the plot. I'm not tickled with "wow" moments as I was in Vale.
 
Coincidence, btw, bringing up the lines in TotE that speaks of Conan listening to priests and philosophers of Zamora for days on end, never making much sense of what they say.

I just finished the Vale story, and Conan mentions just that time in his life as he speaks of the Lovecraftian Outer Dark to Livia at the end of the story.



And, what a strange story Vale is...it seems to me like two halfs of two different stories featuring the same characters mushed together. There's the tale of Livia, slave of the Blacks, and then there's the other part, when she escapes--neither seem to come to a resolution or fit together properly.

And, I still liked it, in spite of the "strangeness" of the story.

Howard seemed, in this one, to spend a lot more time on describing atmosphere than he does in other tales. It really makes me wonder at the "story behind the story" with this tale.

Why did it turn out the way it did?

Was Howard experimenting?

Did he slap it together, which is why it feels a bit disjointed?

Maybe it was edited for length in a magazine? The full text lost?

I dunno.

It's a good, interesting tale. But, it is different. Strange.
 
I'm on to The Castle of Terror by L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter, and while I know that different people have different tastes, it really seems to me that those who don't read the pastiches are doing themselves a disservice.

I'm about halfway through the story, and it's got me as intrigued as many of the pure Howard tales. I especially like how the authors work in the pre-cataclysmic snake people--of whom we know so little about. It's interesting to get more info on them, even if it's not from THE SOURCE.

I like how they worked in Kull, too. That's a neat touch, bridging the universes/ages.

Plus, I think this story would make a good adventure for the rpg. It'd be easy to slap together, and it's got some good old adventure exploration themes working for it.

Haven't finished the tale yet, but so far, I'm hooked. It looks like a good one.
 
I've read (on recommendation) pastiches by Offut - who's style I found more than a little lame to be honest, and Maddox Roberts (Conan the Marauder) - who was better than Offut style-wise, but the book would have been better for ommitting the Manzur sub-plot and concentrating on Conan. Also, while Howard isn't without his faults as a writer (foamy hair...), Maddox Roberts is second-rate by comparison.

I'm sure some of the plots are fine in the pastiches but a lot of the characterisation and description seems well sub par to me.
 
Hm. Well, I really enjoyed Offutt's triolgy. As I said above, different people have different tastes.

I liked out, for a book and a half, Offutt buids up this sexual tension between Conan and Isperana. Then, after being separated at the end of the first book, Conan and his companion run into Isperana and hers. Isperana spurs current man in her control (she uses her sex to control men) to kill Conan, except he slices Conan's companion.

A damn good fight ensues, ending with Isperana's companion dead and Conan pulling Isperana down to the ground to finally bed her .... among the blood soaked sand and riderless horeses. It would have been rape had Isperana not been willing.

Powerful scene. Excellent writing.

Later, too, Isperana is captured and raped by Zamboulan soldiers. Conan rescues her, but it is Isperana's response to what had happened to her that caught me. She didn't like it, but it was just something that happened. Get over it.

She's a survivor.

In a lot of ways, she's like Conan, but where Conan has learned to use his savage strength and brutality to his advantage, Isperana, the weaker sex, has learned to use her charms on men in order to control them.

In the game, she's surely be a multi-class Temptress-Soldier.

Good stuff. Interesting character.

There's more I could say about that trilogy, but it would just drag this on. Suffice it to say that I did enjoy Offutt's version of Conan quite a bit.
 
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